Victory data base

[two-bit cowboy]

Howdy Wild Bill, and welcome aboard.

The photo of the right side of your Victory shows ".38 S&W CTG," which is the name Smith & Wesson uses for the caliber. That's likely what you'll find on the contemporary boxes of ammo that fit your Victory.

Gorgeous revolver! Congrats on being its new owner, and thanks for sharing it with us. I'm relatively new to the Victory Model (this forum offers a wealth of "corporate knowledge" on the topic), but I'm guessing the left side of your gun has some interesting imprints as well.

I'm betting Absalom, DWalt, and others will be along shortly with more details for you.

Cheers,

Bob

 

[Absalom]

I have just filled out the S&W Letter of Authenticity Request Form but thought I'd post some info here on my S&W. I received it from my father-in-law who was a WW II veteran and a Corregidor POW. After the war he returned to AD and during an assignment to Spain (Torrejon AB) he acquired this .38 from military surplus sales. Here is the serial # and some images:

Serial V 734131 P

Any details or insight would be appreciated.

Bill R
OKC, OK

Bill:
From the looks of it, you inherited a very nice unmodified former British Service Revolver, based on the serial likely from late 1944. The cylinder has obviously, both from your photo and your try, not been converted to .38 Special from the original .38 S&W (or .38-200, as it was also called, but not labeled by the factory). Forget the ".38 Colt Short" thing. Colt called that cartridge ".38 Colt New Police", but that is not relevant to your gun. The revolvers which Colt produced for Britain in that caliber were actually stamped "38-200".

Everything seems to be original, finish, case-hardened trigger and hammer, numbered wooden stocks. There are British post-war proofmarks on the cylinder; are there others on the other side of the barrel that's not pictured? It should also say US PROPERTY G.H.D. with a flaming bomb before that on the left top strap.

If that's all present, you've got a Victory model, British edition, in about as good a shape as one can expect to find one these days.

 

[DWalt]

" I was told by a gun shop that the correct cartridge was a .38 Colt Short. "

It's not the correct cartridge for a .38/200, but you can indeed fire the .38 Short Colt in any .38 S&W revolver (or even in any .38 Special or .357 Magnum revolver also). It's a little under-diameter for a .38 S&W chamber and bore, but it does work. Also difficult to find, but it is useful in some competitive shooting games - such as ICORE.

The closest SN on my list is V7286xx which shipped in 11/44. Very near the end for the V-series before they became the SV-series.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass, Bill!

 

[wildbi111]

Thanks

All - Thanks for the responses. It's great to know the details like it is a British Service Revolver from late 1944. I've mailed my form to S&W to get the letter of authenticity.

To answer a few of the comments and questions. On the right side of the barrel it does say "38 S&W CTG". Also on the left, just above the cylinder it says "US Property GHD" with the "flaming bomb" in front of this.

re: the cartridge: I suspected the .38 Colt Short was not the correct size though I have fired the gun with this ammo. It seemed to have a little bit of blowback when fired which is what caused me to suspect it wasn't the correct cartridge. That said what .38 S&W ammo would you all recommend? Buffalo Bore, PPU, Winchester Super-X, Magtech Revolver, etc.?

Here are the pictures of the left side and the top:

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! You can shoot whatever you can find because the revolver is rugged enough to handle even hot ammo. Most of the .38 S&W I see is low velocity LRN...which is fine. But some indoor ranges won't let you shoot it because it isn't jacketed. Also, .38 S&W tends to be a bit expensive as compared to .38 Special. If you plan to shoot a lot of it, you might want to take up handloading.

 

[danbtech]

S&W Victory

I have a Victory that is Navy marked s/n 5000

 

[DWalt]

I have a Victory that is Navy marked s/n 5000

Do you mean V5000?

 

[danbtech]

sorry it has been a long day yes v 5000

 

[DWalt]

"All - Thanks for the responses. It's great to know the details like it is a British Service Revolver from late 1944. I've mailed my form to S&W to get the letter of authenticity."

Don't be too disappointed when you get the letter. It's not likely to tell you much information of value or interest beyond the date of its shipment from the factory. And it's clearly authentic already.

 

[Absalom]

All - Thanks for the responses. It's great to know the details like it is a British Service Revolver from late 1944. I've mailed my form to S&W to get the letter of authenticity.

As DWalt says, the info will not be earth-shaking, almost certainly Hartford Ordnance as destination, where all the lend-lease guns went for further distribution, plus the shipping date, but please post the letter or at least the info here when you get it. We have apparently been so successful in talking people out of lettering the BSR's that I wasn't able to find a single posted letter for one on the forum; lots of letters for US Victorys. I recently lettered my BSR too even though I pretty much knew what the letter was going to say; it's nice to have an actual data point.

As for ammo, as Wiregrassguy says, shoot any ammo in the caliber. The frame and cylinder of the M&P were always dimensioned to handle the higher .38 Special pressures; the cylinder just had the chambers bored for the slightly differently sized caliber for the BSR version.

 

[Muley Gil]

Picked up a Victory today. Blued, 4" .38 special, post 1968 Magnas. Serial number V20210, all to the right of the lanyard loop, which is present. No topstrap markings. All number (except grips, of course) match.

Any idea where it may have shipped and shouldn't it have a Park-type finish? I'll try and post pictures later this weekend.

Poor quality indoor pictures added:

I was looking at this post:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/471696-model-10-a.html

and the finish on this demilled Victory looks a lot like mine. Were both refinished in the UK, with mine coming home to the US and the other staying there?

Inquiring minds wish we could know....

 

[da47chief]

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass, neighbor! Chances are the cylinder has been reamed out for .38 Special. You can check by trying to load a .38 Special cartridge. If it fully inserts, it has been reamed. That reduces the value. Around here, they sell for ~$200-300 if modified.

Thanks neighbor!!! Sorry I have been away and hadn't checked up on my post. I paid $150 for it, haven't checked the cylinder yet. I will check the cylinder tonight after work. I'm just across the way on 84, the Wicksburg area.

 

[Absalom]

I was looking at this post:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/471696-model-10-a.html

and the finish on this demilled Victory looks a lot like mine. Were both refinished in the UK, with mine coming home to the US and the other staying there..

It's a possibility, but you'd have to construct a scenario that leaves the guns without any apparent markings. Neither yours nor this one (even though the collector is in the UK) seem to have been actual war-time Britain-bound guns, as any markings to that effect are missing. I suppose there is a small possibility they could have ended up in Britain as originally US Maritime Commission guns on ships handed over to the British under lend-lease. If they were refinished commercially post-war in Britain, they would have to have the British commercial proofs required for surplussed guns.

Have you thought of maybe lettering yours? With an unmarked topstrap, the letter will likely give you the end user. If it turns out to be a truck factory in Kansas, so much for the British refinish theory .

 

[Muley Gil]

Yes, I've been kicking around the idea. Need to get my pictures onto a flash drive so that I can print them to send to Mr Jinks.

 

[two-bit cowboy]

Mine finally arrived tonight

Bill, at the LGS, called at about 6:30 tonight, "Bob, it's here." It had been a long day. Bill and I had been clearing the latest wet, heavy foot of snow; we were ready to be indoors and talk guns.

I slogged across the mud-sloppy street, slid open the door, kicked off my shoes, and heard Bill's first words, "Hi, Bob. I don't think it's ever been fired. The inside of the barrel looks like it just left the factory." Bill, his new-in-town brother, and I solved the world's problems for more than an hour, then I trudged back through the muck to home.

"It" is a Victory Model, sn V467553 in all the right places. The seller's photos showed lots of what appeared to be rust, but I interpreted the "stuff" to be cosmoline (or some other brown grease rust preventative). I spent about three hours cleaning the old gal, shot a few bad-light photos, and now I'm here telling you this tale. I'll be back with more (better I hope) photos later today.

For now, for you other geeks, there are no U.S. property markings; there's a "P" on the left side in front of the hammer, under the barrel, and on the cylinder; the German federal eagle proof mark on the barrel, frame, and cylinder; "65" and the Ulm, Germany, proof house's stag horn symbol on the frame, indicating the gun had been processed through there in 1965; an "S" on the cylinder and butt (must have failed its first factory inspection); "HEGE SCHW HALL" below the cylinder release, like others on this thread that were imported by Hege GMBH, & Company of Schwabisch Hall, West Germany, after the war. There's also a hard-to-read stamping along the back strap: roughly "SK • fürth • lL U ll". Along with the gun came U.S. Army papers approving the transport of the gun to the USA in 1966 by an Air Force civilian employee. He paid $22.25 for the gun at the Giebelstadt Rod and Gun Club in Northern Bavaria.

Don't be deceived by the shine in my crumby picture. This is S&W's original black finish. It is, indeed, that perfect (98%?). I feel honored to own this Victory, that, I'm guessing, shipped to some defense contractor in late 1943. I can't wait to get Roy's letter...

Cheers,

Bob

 

[two-bit cowboy]

Back with a few more photos. I've had the 1943 silver nickels and steel pennies since 1974, I picked up the license plate in 2006, and the BOYT 43 holster and my Victory Model arrived this month. If my Victory wasn't shipped in late 1943 my still life shots won't be technically correct, but I don't have 1944 pennies and getting a '44 Wyoming license plate would prove nearly impossible as they were made of cardboard that year to support the war effort.

Here's the best shot I can get of the stamp on the back strap. Here, again, is my guesstimation of what it might be: "SK • fürth • lL U ll" but the S could be a 5, and who knows about the bit that follows the town's name. I'd appreciate any help in decoding this.

And, can anyone confirm this might really have been a Victory Model box? It's not my gun's sn, but it does have a V. I'm a bit skeptical about the "RAMP FORESIGHT".

 

[DWalt]

Ramp front sights were not standard on K-frames until the early 1950s, so the box cannot be original to a Victory. Your revolver has the correct front sight. V467553 would indicate probable late 1943-early 1944 shipment.

 

[625smith]

Victory V28328

I am waiting to pick up my Victory serial number V28328. The serial number is on the butt, the barrel, the cylinder, and the right stock. No flaming bomb on the butt. No marking on the left hand top strap. .38 Special four inch barrel. I will post pictures when I pick it up.

 

[Absalom]

........ the German federal eagle proof mark on the barrel, frame, and cylinder; "65" and the Ulm, Germany, proof house's stag horn symbol on the frame, indicating the gun had been processed through there in 1965; an "S" on the cylinder and butt (must have failed its first factory inspection); "HEGE SCHW HALL" below the cylinder release, like others on this thread that were imported by Hege GMBH, & Company of Schwabisch Hall, West Germany, after the war. There's also a hard-to-read stamping along the back strap: roughly "SK • fürth • lL U ll". Along with the gun came U.S. Army papers approving the transport of the gun to the USA in 1966 by an Air Force civilian employee. He paid $22.25 for the gun at the Giebelstadt Rod and Gun Club in Northern Bavaria.

Don't be deceived by the shine in my crumby picture. This is S&W's original black finish. It is, indeed, that perfect (98%?). I feel honored to own this Victory, that, I'm guessing, shipped to some defense contractor in late 1943. I can't wait to get Roy's letter...

Nice specimen. And quite interesting.

As for the backstrap stamping, "Sk. Fürth" stands for "Stadtkreis Fürth". You've figured out that Fürth is the city, in Northern Bavaria. A Stadtkreis, no longer in existence today, back then was an administrative unit, sort of like an urban county. What the stuff behind that means, I cannot fathom; maybe a letter/Roman numeral code for a sub-unit of some sort.

HEGE Jagd & Sport is a sporting goods dealer which got started in Schwäbisch-Hall in 1959, dealing in military surplus weapons; nowadays they do mostly muzzleloaders and blades and are best-known as a big Uberti distributor in Northern Europe, now located in Messkirch.

I look forward to hearing about the letter. Despite no topstrap marking, I don't see this gun shipping to a defense contractor stateside, since the DSC guns were actually sold to their recipients; it's hard to see how such a gun would end up issued by the US occupation authorities to local police in Bavaria in 1945.

There is nothing in German law that requires importer marks; HEGE slapped their stamp on all surplus guns they sold back in the 60s. I guess the gun could have gone back to the US after occupation service and then be re-exported to Germany, but I would think it more likely that HEGE bought it out of some German police armory as surplus in the 60s, had it proofed at Ulm for public sale, and then it ended up at the rod and gun club where the AF employee purchased it.