S&W Pre-Victory

[dbarn]

Gentleman, would appreciate any additional information you may have on this pistol.

My dad was given this pistol from a vet (shortly before he passed away) that stated he obtained while stationed in England. It was ultimately handed down to me by my dad before he passed away.

According to a factory letter from Roy Jinks, the .38/200 Brittish Service Model, United States Lend Lease Contract, indicates your handgun serial number 942974 was shipped on March 19, 1942 and delivered to Hartford Ordnance Depot, Springfield MA, showing 5" barrel, sandblast blue finish, walnut grips. Thanks!

 

[dbarn]

Can anyone tell me if the arrow in the circle is a Canadian proof mark?

 

[DCWilson]

Welcome to the forum. That's a nice speciimen of the British Service Revolver.

If you look closely at the "circle," You'll see that it is open on one side. That's actually an up-pointing arrow within a C, which i believe is a standard Canadian proof mark. I'm not sure why a Canadian mark would be found on a revolver in England, but there are others on this forum who are far more knowledgeable about the Victory and pre-Victory models than I am.

 

[scha]

I believe the arrow is inside a C rather than a 0 and this is a Canadian mark. A reference to this is made in the book .380 Enfield No. 2 Revolver by Stamps and Skennerton.

Hope this helps.

Steve

 

[opoefc]

There were many Canadian units stationed in England, so a gun with a Canadian stamp would not be unusual to be found in England, however this gun has the after market British nitro proofs , required for guns sold surplus in England after WW2, therefore it was probably turned in to the Brits by a Canadian unit after WW2, sold as surplus to a Brit dealer, who then sold it on the civilian market in England, where the "vet" purchased it and brought it back home to the US. The PO334 stamp is a unit inventory stamp, probably added by the Canadians. Guns can talk, if you know how to read them! Ed.

 

[Camster]

I'm curious about the mark above the "Made in USA".

 

[dbarn]

I'm curious about the mark above the "Made in USA".

"NOT ENGLISH MADE"

My guess is this was added by S&W knowing that this was a lend lease contract gun?

Thanks for the compliments and confirmation on the Canadian proof mark. Very interesting to say the least. It would be neat to know the unit issued to and where they served.

 

[Waidmann]

Hi Dbarn, I am researching 954XXX by coincidence which went to New Zealand.

Here's my take: your revolver which should be United States Property marked (on top), was allocated to the Canadians. Following the war it was seconded to a German or Austrian police agency, postwar they were issued these guns so as to be readily identiable as legitimate cops. Markings varied by agency. After this service it was turned over to the British authorities who sold it as surplus. In accordance with civil law it was sent to the London proofhouse for test firing(most went to Birmingham). Along with the London proofs came the NOTENGLIHMAKE. The W.B., bomb and p(proof) were applied by the U.S. Army before it passed to the Commonwealth.

I'll guess it was sold through the American Rod & Gun Club system in England.

 

[dbarn]

Very interesting. Thanks much for the info. It does not however have a USP marking on the top strap. This area has it's original finish and looks like it never had one. The German/Austrian police agency would make sense, much like the post WWII Bavarian issue carbines. Would love to see pictures of yours.

 

[Waidmann]

Okay

All I have is auction photos, not much. This gun is USP marked and NZ marked on rear. The grips are in the 700000 range, yours?

I have been trying to nail down the transition from commercial grade to Victory grade it appears we straddle it especially if your grips are a match.

Absent the USP it would seem yours would be a sale, not a loan?

Curiouser and curiouser!

 

[dbarn]

Nice example! Here's some additional photos that I hope will answer some of your questions. I do know that the pistol is as received by my father in the 1960's.

 

[Waidmann]

dbarn, I am begining to believe in any variable in marking K-200's. With the blue finish and commercial grips I would not expect to the bomb and inspector's initials (or with them the USP on top). I can not see a serial on your grips and the letter is not specific.

Our learned colleage (on my thread) states the first USP marked gun was 791,320.

According to SCSW for a brief period begining March 3, 1942 a brush blue was the finish. Not in SCSW but others have stated Lend-Lease issue began in April 1942. Your letter indicates to me that our pistols straddle the transition. I discount the odd ball serial above there are often wildcards in S&W. In fact 775885 was gifted to the British Ambassador 4-16-47 (In keeping with a practice confined to family,clubs and special cicumstances an 0 was placed in front).
I suppose on your gun the W.B. and bomb were applied in incorrect anticipation of the change, but not the USP.

 

[dbarn]

Waidmann,

Thanks very much for the information. They do indeed straddle this transitional period. I find the history fascinating. I am a long time M1 carbine collector and the anomalies never cease to amaze. The grips on this piece fit as if they grew there, in fact snapping in place. Interesting the medallions are brass where yours appear to be chrome. Not exactly sure about the sandblast blue, but would say that this finish is more of a brush blue. I also have a US Navy Victory serial number V361, and find the pre-victory more interesting.

 

[Waidmann]

dbarn, I re-checked SCSW, gold medallions date 1910-1920 or so, no medallions in the 20's, silver from in 1929 on to the war. I suppose they have to be other than original. I have ordered a set of uncheckered military for mine. I'd offer you these but they are sorry as sin.

Carbines, what 19 makers? Once had a Quality Hdwe. with a Rockola barrel. Seems like a century ago.

Have enjoyed this exchange and I believe stumbled on useful fact.
Regards,
Bill (Waidmann)

 

[dbarn]

dbarn, I re-checked SCSW, gold medallions date 1910-1920 or so, no medallions in the 20's, silver from in 1929 on to the war. I suppose they have to be other than original. I have ordered a set of uncheckered military for mine. I'd offer you these but they are sorry as sin.

Carbines, what 19 makers? Once had a Quality Hdwe. with a Rockola barrel. Seems like a century ago.

Have enjoyed this exchange and I believe stumbled on useful fact.
Regards,
Bill (Waidmann)

Thanks Bill, I too have very much enjoyed sharing the information on these great pistols. Regarding the grips, I think I'll keep these as is. Who knows what information will become available in the future. The fit to the frame is superb, slight damage to upper right grip area not withstanding, and the wear patterns on the inside of the grips match the crud on the frame.

Regarding carbines have been collecting them for 20 years, from Inland to Irwin Pedersen. Much fakery in that hobby and I'm sure the S&W folks are not immune. Best regards.

 

[winstonsmith84]

I own 942632 with number matching smooth Victory grips. Also with Canadian proofs and identical butt markings. Mine now sports a 2" barrel and .38 special bored cylinder.

 

[Waidmann]

Winston, sounds like you have the brother to Lee Harvey Oswald's gun.
A quick image search will turn up the Nat'l Archive's photo.

 

[winstonsmith84]

Winston, sounds like you have the brother to Lee Harvey Oswald's gun.

Na, Mine has a proper civilian 2" barrel with the right sight and locking lug. Not that chopped off mess!