Does a Vintage Carry Pistol Stand up to Today's Pistols?

[Alk8944]

Me239,

You raise some interesting points, but are also sadly misinformed about several points.

First, any mechanical device is a set of compromises. Every feature cannot be built into every design, and we are not talking about only guns! Any firearm is nothing more nor less than a bullet launching device. The ammunition doesn't care what it is fired from, and both accuracy and safety are in a large point a result of the operators competence, not the design.

There have been blow-back pistols in calibers including 9mm Browning Long, 9mm Parabellum, 9mm Largo, and even .45 ACP. Have you ever heard of HiPoint??? All of these are far more powerful than .380!

"Vintage Design"? How about the S&W J-Frame and K-Frame models? These all date back to 1896 and 1899 respectively! I think a Model 10, 19, 60, etc. could easily fall into the Vintage category. Not only are many "Vintage" pistols and revolvers fully as capable as "Modern" guns, they are just as capable as when they were new. During my life, and the more than 50 years I have carried concealed during it, I have carried many "Vintage" firearms and felt fully confidant in their ability to defend me if it came to dire necessity, and I did my share. These include in no particular order:

Mauser 1934 .32
Walther PP .32
Remington style "Hy Hunter" double-derringer, .357
Colt 1911 .45
S&W 1905 4th Change .38, ca. 1918 "I was the 3rd police officer to carry this revolver as a duty and off duty weapon!"
Browning 1910 .380
Colt New Service .45 Colt
Webley "Metropolitan Police" in .450 Revolver ca. 1870 or so.
Savage 1907 .32
Colt (Clone) SAA .45 Colt
Colt 1903 .32
S&W .38 Safety
S&W .32 Double Action (I'll admit this is marginal!)
And a few times, when in a peculiar mood, a Colt Navy .36

I am sure there were a few more that I don't recall at the moment.

My EDC is a S&W Model 12, either of 2.

I also carry from time to time, a S&W Shorty Forty, Astra A-75L 9mm, S&W Model 39, S&W Model 19 2 1/2", S&W Model 10 2", S&W Model 60-9(?) .38, S&W Model 14-2 "Dayton", S&W Model 30 3" .32 S&WL, and several others. I cannot say I really have felt any more confident with any of these "modern" guns that those in the list above. I still carry some of those from time to time when the mood strikes. Historically they have all been able to get the job done when needed, and I have no doubt they still will!

 

[alwslate]

To the OP. Your hypothetical scenario is interesting but it's obvious
that you started with your conclusion and then built your "comparison"
around it. It's impossible to really generalize on the basis of vintage
vs today's. Soooo many variables. To stake your life on a gun you must
trust that specific gun you own whether vintage or modern. Different
designs require different handling procedures but it's all the same.
You must know how to handle YOUR gun.

 

[Yaworski]

I carried a pre-war Walther PP for years.

 

[scoobysnacker]

Handling:
The 1910 is a sweet shooting pistol, for it's size, since all three fingers fit on the grip. If it were not for the steel frame, the recoil would drive the narrow frame into the web of your hand. The balance of the pistol is near perfect and points quite naturally, which is great due to the incredibly low profile sights. While it can be enjoyable to shoot, it is obviously meant to be carried and drawn easily as the profile is incredibly sleek and sights minimal.

The CM40 is a beast. Short and simple. The recoil in the CM40 is manageable enough for carry, but by no means a range toy. The two fingered grip with flush mags is minimal at most and the top heavy design means it handles a bit more clunky than the 1910. The design is sort of reminder that most carry guns today are chopped versions of their larger counterparts, the CM40 being the same.

Which should you carry?
.

What do you guys think of carrying a vintage pistol for carry?

I prefer the vintage pistols, and this point has a lot to do with it. Also, like someone else said, there's a lot of craftsmanship in the older guns that you don't get with fantastic plastic.

If you think that the caliber in your gun is sufficient to deter, then go with the most comfortable choice in that caliber, and the one you take the most pride of ownership in.

So one is old and the other can be bought new? Remember, in a year they would both be "used guns", and that new part is no longer relevant.

 

[American1776]

One thing to consider is that older guns MAY NOT be drop safe. There was a gun writer who was a contributing editor to a large well known gun magazine. He died when his Colt Model 1903 hammerless slipped from his waistband, discharged, and struck him in the chest. He made it to his garage to drive to the hospital, but died there.

This is a controversial topic among gun people, but I never carry a pistol that is not considered 'drop safe'. This means either a super light firing pin or firing pin block.

 

[Dennis The B]

Technology and the U.S. legal system drive all decisions by gun makers.

Metal treatment and advances in materials all make more modern guns "better" firearms. Today's finishes are more robust, and the introduction of stainless steel and modern thermoplastics permanently changed the industry.

There is a level of labor put into older pistols that makes them objets d'art. However, from a pure utilitarian perspective, those older gems may not make the modern grade. The examples we see of an older era are the best that have survived. The junk guns that were around then are, for the most part, long scrapped.

The legal system has everyone's attention. Colt came out with the Series 80, partly in response to the potential liability from the Series 70 firing system. It may have been a "panic call", but it's what reality is. Even Glocks have had negligent discharges, and its advertised as a "safe action" pistol. The Series 70 system is still alive and well.

I've handled and fired the Browning 1910, but I wouldn't want to spend an afternoon putting .380's downrange with it. I'm just not a huge fan of the straight blow back pistol, and I own a Beretta 85SF, and a couple of CZ83's. My Colt Government Model .380 is a much better pistol in that regard.

 

[SAFireman]

Human beings have not changed in that time frame.....my 1919 manufactured Colt 1911 will still do the trick, as will my 1908 Colt 380 Pocket Hammerless.

There are some older guns, and some modern, that I would not trust to be 100% for SD/HD purposes.

There are no certainties in life, so stack the deck in your favor as much as you can.

 

[Yaworski]

nor had the specific short recoil system used in the CM40 been invented,

Meh. All tilting barrel systems are variations on John Brownings design which was introduced in his Model 1900 (if memory serves).

 

[M29since14]

I have to agree with American1776 about the drop-safe thing. Of course you are not supposed to ever drop your pistol... but things do happen.

In my .45 Commander I prefer a Titanium firing pin to a firing pin safety. Maybe I am wrong, but I base that preference on that first and foremost I want the gun to always fire.

In any case, as has been said already, the most important thing seems to be having knowledge of and confidence in your particular pistol, whatever age it is.

 

[dougb1946]

A gun in good mechanical condition that would kill 100 years ago will probably kill today. I have a Navy Colt .36 cal, same gun Wild Bill Hickok used. If it got down to it, i am sure it would kill a home invader. Of course, if it gets to that point, the BD is slipping on a lot of loose brass on the floor and my aim will be in question.

 

[Protected One]

The REAL interesting thing will be to see, in 50 years or so, how todays pistols held up against the vintage guns!

 

[delta-419]

K Frame 32 WCF

I sometimes carry a S&W 32WCF of 1920s vintage and I cook up my own handloads. It feels and handles great with its 4" barrel. I just found an H.H.Heiser holster that fits it perfectly and is a very comfortable carry. I switch it out with a model 36 at times. I'm not looking for a fight, so it's better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

 

[Targets Guy]

My '72 Chiefs Special works just fine. Thank you very much.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

I still have a place in my heart (but not my safe) for my once-owned wartime (WWI) commercial Broomhandle, although that's not the fastest gun in the world to get into action. Pretty safe gun.

I still carry an improved Model 56 (AKA 2" M15), whose design does actually go back to before the penultimate turn of the century, with the latest safety modification made, I believe, during WWII.

There have clearly been some significant improvements in safety features of modern autoloaders, but there have also been a number of striker-fired autoladers developed, most of them drop-proof, but also lacking some human engineering advantages (see the other thread).

Present or past, there are plenty of usable designs and available guns. Of course, there are also some that certain individuals may not prefer, or even be willing to carry. It's a sad day, indeed, when there is nothing to bitch about.

 

[amazingflapjack]

my model 59 and 4506 no dash will be there-whenever

 

[Chubbo]

Vintage pistol for cary

A little while back, I saw a post on another forum asking how turn of the century pocket pistols would compare to the recent surge in popularity of pocket pistols. The two pistols in question are the FN 1910, chambered in both .32 and .380 ACP, and the Kahr CM40, chambered in .40 S&W. Perhaps a better comparison would have been against the CW380/P380 (maybe even the CT380 due to the similar barrel length), but the CM40 is the closest I have.

Functionality:
From an engineering standpoint, the two handguns are worlds apart, the CM40 being a recoil system and the 1910 being a simple straight blowback. In the early 20th century, metallurgy was not what we had today, nor had the specific short recoil system used in the CM40 been invented, meaning pistols of the day were limited to lowered powered cartridges that could be handled by the simple blowback designs. The .380 ACP is right on the cusp of being the most powerful cartridge capable of being chambered in a blowback design, before we come up with a Hi Point C9. The first pistol of Browning's to fire the .380 was the Colt 1908, which in itself is an updated Colt 1903 simply modified to fire the larger .380 over the .32 ACP. When Browning designed the 1910 pistol, he engineered the weapon to be capable of switching calibers with simply a barrel swap as a way to cut down on manufacturing costs. The pistol itself is a robust, striker-fired, design ahead of its time and was to copied over the next century, the most prominent being using the barrel as the guide rod, a design that would be found later in pistols like the Walther PP/k, Makarov, and even today's Bersa Thunder series. The 1910 was also considered to be one of the safest pistols of the day, featuring 3 safeties, the grip safety, thumb safety, and magazine disconnect.

The Kahr CM40 is in a class of its own. As to my knowledge, the CM40 is the smallest .40 S&W handgun in production. Utilizing a double action striker, Browning style recoil system, and 3 dot sight system (a feature that has almost come to be expected from every manufacturer), the CM40 has the benefits of over 100 years of engineering and user feedback over the 1910. The CM40 is one of the value based offerings from Kahr and was born out of the CM9 by increasing its size ever so slightly to compensate for the added power of .40 S&W. Another benefit of the years is the polymer frame used on the Kahr, making it lighter than similar sized full steel pistols. Other than the fact that the CM40 is the smallest .40 S&W in production, it's design is similar to the polymer, striker-fired handguns that fill the market today.

Size:
The two pistols are nearly the same size, with the exception of the 1910 being slightly longer and noticeably thinner.

Specs for the 1910:
Weight: 20.8 Oz
Length: 6.02"
Width (my calipers): .775"
Height (my calipers): 3.9"
Barrel length: 3.5"
Capacity: 6+1 or 7+1 (.380 and .32 ACP respectively)

The CM40:
Weight: 15.8 Oz (empty)
Length: 5.47"
Width: .94"
Height: 4"
Barrel: 3.1"
Capacity: 5+1

Handling:
The 1910 is a sweet shooting pistol, for it's size, since all three fingers fit on the grip. If it were not for the steel frame, the recoil would drive the narrow frame into the web of your hand. The balance of the pistol is near perfect and points quite naturally, which is great due to the incredibly low profile sights. While it can be enjoyable to shoot, it is obviously meant to be carried and drawn easily as the profile is incredibly sleek and sights minimal.

The CM40 is a beast. Short and simple. The recoil in the CM40 is manageable enough for carry, but by no means a range toy. The two fingered grip with flush mags is minimal at most and the top heavy design means it handles a bit more clunky than the 1910. The design is sort of reminder that most carry guns today are chopped versions of their larger counterparts, the CM40 being the same.

Which should you carry?
This is obviously a question of opinion, but the facts can be laid out. The 1910 is a 116 year old design that's claim to fame is killing Franz Ferdinand and precipitating WW1. The CM40 on the other hand is a benchmark of contemporary handgun design, and has the added safety of a double action trigger pull. In my opinion, the one big flaw with the 1910 is the striker. The 1910 has a crisp single action trigger pull, but at a cost as there is also no firing pin block. The only thing holding the striker back from touching off the round (and the rest of the magazine) is the small sear engagement, and if it were to ever break, results would be disastrous. The Kahr on the other hand has a double action trigger pull meaning if it were to drop accidentally, it wouldn't have sufficient power to set the primer off, but ontop of that the firing pin block would have prevented the striker from ever touching the primer in the first place. It's actually sort of sad to me that the 1910 has that flaw as it has the unique characteristic of being built for concealed carry from the ground up, as opposed to what seems to be an attitude of "what's the largest caliber we can put in the smallest gun?". With all that said, I actually find myself carrying BOTH pistols at times. I think of my 1910 as a more ergonomic LCP with a longer barrel that can squeeze a bit more juice from the diminutive .380.

What do you guys think of carrying a vintage pistol for carry?

After around eighty years of owning, and using "vintage pistols", I think the preceived problem of whether or not they are all right for carry has already been proven by the weapons themselves. I also think that the serviceability of the Soy bean/Horse manure weapons of this last generation will speak for themselves. When they have been used a while in the rays of the sun, and other elements. Then, we will know how they hold up. Plastic has already been shown to be easier, cheaper, faster, and more profitable for the manufactures to build guns from, but, the jury is still out on how long they will last. A little common sense, would go a long ways in this equation, along with some opening of your eyes. My guess is that after a short service life, they will be ground up with all other disposable products, and replaced. This is when the so called, "terrible high price" of fitting, and finishing metal weapons', true value, will come to light. Project us forward another century, and if our Rulers, still allow us to own those great old weapons, they will still be with us! Will the "Soy Bean/Horse manure" Plastic ones ? 'Nuff. Said.
Chubbo

 

[alwslate]

All vintage guns were not created equal just as modern guns were not.
Since this thread seems to be about .380 semi autos, which I own
several of I have a few opinions. There are two .380s that just stand
out from all the rest as being exceptionally well thought out designs
along with being very well made. In striker fired guns the Browning-
FN 1910 is at the top of the list. There's a reason why it was made
for many years unchanged and was JMB's personal favorite. If you
take some time to study the design and look at how the very few
parts interact it's impossible not to be impressed. It is truely a
remarkable little pistol. The other is the external hammer Beretta
mod 1934, no doubt the most rugged, simple, durable and all around
best gun of it's type ever. I have examples of both and have carried
them for SD at times but don't often do so because of the weight of
their all steel construction, not because of concerns about their
reliability.

 

[RGVshooter]

I think any reliable pistol regardless of age is well suited for SD. Now as for me the most "vintage" pistol I've carried was my bulgarian Makarov. (9x18mak is the most powerful round you can get away with safely in a blowback design) It served the russians & their satilite countries since 1951 up until the 90's and some nations still issue them to the PD & military. If it's good enough for them then it's good enough for me.

I'm a huge fan of Kahr pistols & my EDC is my K9 9mm and I recently ditched my M&P bodyguard for a CM9, which is not much bigger than the BG380. For giggles, I still on occasion take my mak out for a walk, I would trust any of these pistols with my life..

 

[Me239]

Me239,

You raise some interesting points, but are also sadly misinformed about several points.

First, any mechanical device is a set of compromises. Every feature cannot be built into every design, and we are not talking about only guns! Any firearm is nothing more nor less than a bullet launching device. The ammunition doesn't care what it is fired from, and both accuracy and safety are in a large point a result of the operators competence, not the design.

There have been blow-back pistols in calibers including 9mm Browning Long, 9mm Parabellum, 9mm Largo, and even .45 ACP. Have you ever heard of HiPoint??? All of these are far more powerful than .380!

"Vintage Design"? How about the S&W J-Frame and K-Frame models? These all date back to 1896 and 1899 respectively! I think a Model 10, 19, 60, etc. could easily fall into the Vintage category. Not only are many "Vintage" pistols and revolvers fully as capable as "Modern" guns, they are just as capable as when they were new. During my life, and the more than 50 years I have carried concealed during it, I have carried many "Vintage" firearms and felt fully confidant in their ability to defend me if it came to dire necessity, and I did my share. These include in no particular order:

Mauser 1934 .32
Walther PP .32
Remington style "Hy Hunter" double-derringer, .357
Colt 1911 .45
S&W 1905 4th Change .38, ca. 1918 "I was the 3rd police officer to carry this revolver as a duty and off duty weapon!"
Browning 1910 .380
Colt New Service .45 Colt
Webley "Metropolitan Police" in .450 Revolver ca. 1870 or so.
Savage 1907 .32
Colt (Clone) SAA .45 Colt
Colt 1903 .32
S&W .38 Safety
S&W .32 Double Action (I'll admit this is marginal!)
And a few times, when in a peculiar mood, a Colt Navy .36

I am sure there were a few more that I don't recall at the moment.

My EDC is a S&W Model 12, either of 2.

I also carry from time to time, a S&W Shorty Forty, Astra A-75L 9mm, S&W Model 39, S&W Model 19 2 1/2", S&W Model 10 2", S&W Model 60-9(?) .38, S&W Model 14-2 "Dayton", S&W Model 30 3" .32 S&WL, and several others. I cannot say I really have felt any more confident with any of these "modern" guns that those in the list above. I still carry some of those from time to time when the mood strikes. Historically they have all been able to get the job done when needed, and I have no doubt they still will!

Hey, sorry for the late response. Did you read my original post carefully? I'm fully aware of Hi Points (and other blowback 9,40,45,etc) and even mentioned them in the post. I said that .380 is on the cusp of being the most powerful cartridge before we arrive at a design similar to a Hi Point C9.

And yes, of course pistols are a compromise of features, however you cannot deny that the firing pin block is a prominent feature in today's pistols. There may be some older, pocket gun designs that do feature the safety, but it's mostly a modern phenomenon.

Revolvers are also "vintage" in my eyes, but my comparison was mainly between two automatic pistols that are similar in function, size, and operation (automatic, pocket sized, and striker fired pistols)

 

[Skydivinglawyer]

Vintage pistol carried by Vintage person....can sho' be deadly combination.
It is an interesting post. Thank you.