Revolver Action Job Question

[armorer951]

Adding casings changes the position of the extractor slightly, and holds it firmly in the same "in service" alignment with the body of the cylinder, as when it is during firing. Movement of the extractor in the face of the cylinder is minimal without casings, but this slight movement has a huge affect on carry up, and "fitting" issues. It can, and should, be almost completely eliminated with an empty casing or two when checking carry up, etc.

The red marked "voided" or milled out areas are never in contact with the hand, or shouldn't be. Hand contact at the beginning of the ratchet pick up phase is on the side of the blue colored area at the bottom, as you are looking through the frame window.... and the top of the hand. As the cylinder is rotated, and the ratchet and hand rise, contact between the hand and ratchet slowly changes to the side of the ratchet and the side of the hand, and when lock up ocurrs the side of the hand passes by the side of the ratchet body. It's this point on the ratchet body that must be "fit" or cut, so that the hand doesn't continue to impart an undo amount of force to the ratchet after lock up.....which can cause binding. If you watch the process through the hand window you can actually see what surfaces on the hand and ratchet body that are involved in this critical process.
During trigger return, the hand simply moves back down over, and under the edge of the next ratchet in the sequence.

As I previously indicated, cutting/fitting ratchets requires special tools and training. If you have an offending oversized ratchet, you may be able to alleviate the problem by a suitable break in period, or with dry firing....or worst case, replacement of the existing hand with a slightly (.001") thinner one.

 

[MygunisaS&Wrevolver]

Maybe one more thing to check. I would mark the offending cylinder with a piece of tape or a gray sharpie and make sure that this is the same cylinder that has the heavier double action pull. If it is, look at the ratchet face for that cylinder, it should be the one that is at 1 or 2 o'clock from the cylinder that the firing pin dropped on. Degrease that ratchet and mark the surface with a sharpie and let dry. Then making sure your gun is empty, dry fire 12 or so times. Look at that ratchet surface and see if the hand contact is nice and square as indicated by the wear on the sharpie marking. You mentioned that the extracter rod ran straight but what about the center pin as it engages into the bolt hole on the breech face? I have also seen a high ratchets drag on the breech face but normally that would cause it to drag all of the time. You could still mark the top of the ratchet and cycle the gun and look and see if any of the sharpie marking was worn off. I am definately not an expert but thought that maybe you could try some of these less intrusive things before moving to the barrette file, which really requires practice and experience. Good luck and I hope I didn't muddy the waters for you.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

I know very little about this subject, but based on an actual experience with a 25-2, I am going to raise one possibility. Even if it works, you may not consider it a fix.

Here it is: Lubricate the internals, particularly the hand, but also the rebound slide and spring, sear and trigger surfaces etc., with RIG +P Stainless Steel Lube. Use this stuff very sparingly, but get it every place where there is or may be high pressure friction. I don't think that it would hurt to even get a little on the extractor.

After reassembling the revolver and trying the action, you may find the problem gone, and possibly even lose interest in further investigation.

Doesn't cost much to try.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Maybe one more thing to check. I would mark the offending cylinder with a piece of tape or a gray sharpie and make sure that this is the same cylinder that has the heavier double action pull. If it is, look at the ratchet face for that cylinder, it should be the one that is at 1 or 2 o'clock from the cylinder that the firing pin dropped on. Degrease that ratchet and mark the surface with a sharpie and let dry. Then making sure your gun is empty, dry fire 12 or so times. Look at that ratchet surface and see if the hand contact is nice and square as indicated by the wear on the sharpie marking. You mentioned that the extracter rod ran straight but what about the center pin as it engages into the bolt hole on the breech face? I have also seen a high ratchets drag on the breech face but normally that would cause it to drag all of the time. You could still mark the top of the ratchet and cycle the gun and look and see if any of the sharpie marking was worn off. I am definately not an expert but thought that maybe you could try some of these less intrusive things before moving to the barrette file, which really requires practice and experience. Good luck and I hope I didn't muddy the waters for you.

Thanks... see above for pics of my marked cylinder. it's the same one every time.

I know very little about this subject, but based on an actual experience with a 25-2, I am going to raise one possibility. Even if it works, you may not consider it a fix.

Here it is: Lubricate the internals, particularly the hand, but also the rebound slide and spring, sear and trigger surfaces etc., with RIG +P Stainless Steel Lube. Use this stuff very sparingly, but get it every place where there is or may be high pressure friction. I don't think that it would hurt to even get a little on the extractor.

After reassembling the revolver and trying the action, you may find the problem gone, and possibly even lose interest in further investigation.

Doesn't cost much to try.

I have it all lubed now with Slip Extreme Weapons Grease. It's in all my other revolvers as well.

Is the stuff you mention different than a good synthetic grease?

In any event there is something wrong and putting any type of substance on it would only be covering it up. I enjoy this very much so it's not all that much hassle to figure it out.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Adding casings changes the position of the extractor slightly, and holds it firmly in the same "in service" alignment with the body of the cylinder, as when it is during firing. Movement of the extractor in the face of the cylinder is minimal without casings, but this slight movement has a huge affect on carry up, and "fitting" issues. It can, and should, be almost completely eliminated with an empty casing or two when checking carry up, etc.

The red marked "voided" or milled out areas are never in contact with the hand, or shouldn't be. Hand contact at the beginning of the ratchet pick up phase is on the side of the blue colored area at the bottom, as you are looking through the frame window.... and the top of the hand. As the cylinder is rotated, and the ratchet and hand rise, contact between the hand and ratchet slowly changes to the side of the ratchet and the side of the hand, and when lock up ocurrs the side of the hand passes by the side of the ratchet body. It's this point on the ratchet body that must be "fit" or cut, so that the hand doesn't continue to impart an undo amount of force to the ratchet after lock up.....which can cause binding. If you watch the process through the hand window you can actually see what surfaces on the hand and ratchet body that are involved in this critical process.
During trigger return, the hand simply moves back down over, and under the edge of the next ratchet in the sequence.

As I previously indicated, cutting/fitting ratchets requires special tools and training. If you have an offending oversized ratchet, you may be able to alleviate the problem by a suitable break in period, or with dry firing....or worst case, replacement of the existing hand with a slightly (.001") thinner one.

What tools and where can I find them? I don't plan to touch this gun in that area if not advised to do so, but I do plan to pickup a project gun for learning.

This is a 1k dollar PC gun. 586 L comp. In reality, I should be boxing it up and sending it in.

PS thanks for the continued explanation. I think I have enough to get me through a night of learning the interaction between the hand and ratchet. And possibly finding the problem area!

 

[MygunisaS&Wrevolver]

Sorry, I guess I should read all of the postings (old age) and looked at the pic closer before replying and I see that you marked the offending cylinder. I believe that your model 586 uses the new MIM, metal injected parts and has that new type of MIM ratchet. I have never worked on the new MIM parts guns. Things have changed here, I don't think you can file on that ratchet because you will remove the hardened surface and then you will really get things to wear. I think any of the guns made after 97 are MIM guns and Kuhnhausen says to send them back to Smith & Wesson for repair and not try it yourself. I am sure that the other readers will correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Sorry, I guess I should read all of the postings (old age) and looked at the pic closer before replying and I see that you marked the offending cylinder. I believe that your model 586 uses the new MIM, metal injected parts and has that new type of MIM ratchet. I have never worked on the new MIM parts guns. Things have changed here, I don't think you can file on that ratchet because you will remove the hardened surface and then you will really get things to wear. I think any of the guns made after 97 are MIM guns and Kuhnhausen says to send them back to Smith & Wesson for repair and not try it yourself. I am sure that the other readers will correct me if I am wrong.

No problem. I really appreciate all the input I can get!

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Thanks... see above for pics of my marked cylinder. it's the same one every time.



I have it all lubed now with Slip Extreme Weapons Grease. It's in all my other revolvers as well.

Is the stuff you mention different than a good synthetic grease?

In any event there is something wrong and putting any type of substance on it would only be covering it up. I enjoy this very much so it's not all that much hassle to figure it out.

if you are already using a really good grease, then my suggestion is probably not worth anything. The reason I did bring it up is that since it's only a pound off, it sounds like friction, and the +P really shines in what I think are fairly high-pressure applications, like sears and several elements of 1911 lockup. I once bought a used 25-2, gave it to a good gunsmith, who put shims where they belonged, fitted a rounded & polished trigger, and chamfered charge holes. He lubed it with Ed's Red, a favorite of his. When I got it back, it had a slight hitch in DA, all chambers. I disassembled it, dried it off from the Ed's Red, and relubed it thoroughly but very lightly with +P. The hitch went away and never came back.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Alright guys.... I've been up all night and a side from the L-comp getting a complete trigger job courtesy of Jerry Mickulek I've done everything possible but hit those ratchet verticals, and where the verticals meet the face at the 90*.

While it's worth noting some ratchets stick out a tad more than others (as viewed from the back/through the window) it turns out that's not the problem. I now understand though.... how to fit those ratchets. Slowly, carefully, paying careful attention to maintain hand off, or lift off, or whatever the proper term is. Note that because I understand does not in any way mean if I attempted to do so it would turn out a success.

However, lack of the proper tool led me to get creative. I took another revolver, my 686+, and swapped cylinder/yokes around until I narrowed the problem down to the Yoke of the 586. Without any doubt, it's the yoke.

So... my guess would be it's bent. Any other things to check on the yoke?

Happy I got it figured out. Will be happier when it's fixed.

 

[armorer951]

Seems odd that the yoke being out of alignment would affect only one ratchet.

You might also check that the end of the yoke barrel is square.....and that it's seat/bearing surface inside the cylinder is also square and free from burrs.

Yoke alignment tools are available.

YOKE/CRANE ALIGNMENT TOOL | Brownells

(tool #2 for K, L, N)

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Would a roll pin punch work?

 

[armorer951]

Accuracy is required

 

[armorer951]

Yoke facing reamers are also available......

YOKE FACING REAMER | Brownells


This is an expensive tool. I have one you can borrow if you don't want to invest in one.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Accuracy is required

Ya.... grasping at straws I guess.

I was just reading about replacement yokes and it seems they should be fitted. However, my extra yoke from my 686+ seems to work OK. Am I missing something?

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Yoke facing reamers are also available......

YOKE FACING REAMER | Brownells


This is an expensive tool. I have one you can borrow if you don't want to invest in one.

Thanks for that offer. I may take you up on it. Would it be wise to first grab the alignment tool and see where I end up? If that tool allows me to solve the problem I wouldn't need to ream it or is it wise to do both? I could see doing it both ways I suppose.

I have the alignment tool in my cart.

Could you suggest a couple files that will allow me to get in the tight spots, such as the ratchet areas and any others that may arise?

I managed to use a diamond file I had, but would like something more 'hardy'.

See pics below. I used Dykem to make sure I wasn't touching the vertical face of the ratchet. Before and afters..... I also knocked down the edges of the ratchet faces to aid in trigger return. I don't know why this cylinder had such buggered ratchets. None of my others are even close to being buggered at all, let alone to any degree.

 

[armorer951]

Yokes are numbered and follow the gun frame through the assembly, fitting, and finishing process. Occasionally they will mechanically work in another frame, however, some purely cosmetic issues may be evident...say at the corners or edges for instance.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

I think I prefer to fix mine. I will order that alignment tool. Do you think I need the reamer at the same time?

Also if you, or anyone else, can recommend a file or two from Brownells that'd be great. Something for tight spots, safe edges, and another universal that would come in handy working on smiths.

Tomcatt - I looked for what you described and nothing came up.

 

[armorer951]

You do not need the facing reamer in order to verify that the yoke in in proper alignment. If you don't have Kuhnhausen's shop manual, I would suggest you purchase the book. It is a valuable resource, both for training and referral.

For detail work, I would suggest high quality needle files. Brownells and other vendors sell many different shapes and sizes. The shapes and type of cut will depend on the type of work you will be doing. They are so expensive, I usually buy them as I need them and in the shape and size required for each particular job. Nicholson is the best brand I have found as far as quality is concerned, but there are many other brands available.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Thanks Armorer - you're not joking. I found myself looking at some needle file kit.... went to add it to the cart and it was 339.00!

I'll look for some individual needle files. The most important thing is having the edges free from file material, and I'm not sure the proper name for that. I suppose I could always grind the file material off the sides.

I could also get a couple extra stones and grind them to size. I used to polish metal/plastic injection molds. A lot of the EDM, which use a high quality india stone (aluminum oxide) and we'd grind stones so thin you'd eventually grind 10 because you knew one wouldn't last long. Not because it would get used, because it would break. They also had to be quite small for the ultra-sonic machine.

I know if I had a couple stones to waste this time around I would have been out in the shop on the bench grinder.

Anyways.... Looking to make a worthwhile purchase from Brownell's. Discounts start at 99.00 or more!

Oh ya... the manual you speak of. Does it have info the Jerry Mick. video does not? I don't do well with reading. I'm a visual learner so I'm real hesitant to buy that book even though I've heard about it over and over.

 

[armorer951]

There are many illustrations and photographs in Kuhnhausen's books, and he is very easy to read. I would say that if you planning to work on your own revolvers, and want to learn more about them, the book is one of the best, if not the best out there. Kuhnhausen books do cover many details that are not is the JM videos. If you don't like the 'Shop Manual', send it back for a refund. Brownells will give you your money back..... as long as you don't spill a cup of coffee on it.

Brownells sells many fine tools. The best two 6" finishing/polishing stones at Brownells are these........I wish I had bought them when they first came out twenty or more years ago, but I couldn't afford them. They are perfectly square, and the edges are so sharp that they will cut you if you're not careful.

6" X 1/2" X 1/2" CERAMIC STONES | Brownells


They also sell the Norton 6" x 1/2" x 1/2"medium and fine India stones, which are indispensible.

6" X 1/2" X 1/2" INDIA STONE | Brownells