Question for instructors

[rick1085]

During my last CCW renewal class, my instructor had me do the following drill . Asked me to remove the magazine, unload the magazine. Then place the wepon, empty mag, and loose rounds on the bench in front of me. He then started a target moving towards me from about 10 yards. Told me the target was the bad guy with a knife and I should shoot it before it got to me. Assuming the purpose of the drill was to teach the 21 ft rule. What I did was picked up the gun and one bullet. Shoved the round in the chamber, slingshot the slide, and shot the target between the eyes. The instructor looked surprised and said no one had ever done that before.

Now my question is "why not"!

Wepon was a SIG P938

 

[Wise_A]

Probably because people are pre-conditioned to load ammo into the magazine, and then load the magazine into the pistol. It's just a matter of habit.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Probably because people are pre-conditioned to load ammo into the magazine, and then load the magazine into the pistol. It's just a matter of habit.

I agree. I bet he even sees people load their traditional double action pistol's magazines with one or more rounds and then decock them before firing. That's what folks are used to doing; so they don't think "outside the box". You fight like you train and most people don't train to fight.

Speaking as a CHL instructor, Level III Firearms instructor, and graduate of Uncle Sam's uniformed services, that reminds me of an incident from last year when I was at the Israeli counter-terrorism school (it's a fun tourist attraction but for warriors young and old it's more than that). The instructor taught us various things but one thing that he stated was that you keep firing until you're sure your opponent is dead. For an exercise he played terrorist and we had to defend a position (fake guns in use!). Everyone is doing what he said to do, keep on firing, but he keeps popping back up. Standard procedure? Typically, do what he said, right?

You trained folks out there know what happened, of course. After 5 or 6 times of his reappearance I circled around behind him and took him out. "Bang! You're dead!" The look on his face was priceless. Apparently, nobody had ever done that before.

Interestingly, I'd like to know what your CCW instructor's revolver students do.

 

[JCFindley]

I am not sure I see a lesson here except perhaps keep your gun loaded or at the very least keep a loaded magazine? Perhaps the lesson is to think outside the box or maybe not put yourself in the box in the first place.

Yes, you fight like you train but why in the world would I have an unloaded gun with an empty magazine and a bunch of bullets sitting around? If I ever found myself in that odd situation I would use the Nike defense and grab my pistol and take off running.

The 21 foot rule generally presumes a holstered weapon and a guy with a knife at or inside 21 feet.

 

[hobby-gunsmith]

question for the instructor

You do have to think outside the box. Training is essential to condition your reflexes and mind to think as a unit. The instructor, probably, wanted to see what you would do in that one type of situation. I have seen magazine floor plates come apart followed by the spring and cartridges at the same time rendering the gun useless. What would you do in that situation? Again, thinking outside the box is good and if you can create scenarios of malfunctions and fix the problem and practice, you are ahead of the game if you encounter that situation. Dry fire every day and create your own situations. The time will come when you will not have to think how to recover and have a functional gun.

Nick

 

[Muss Muggins]

I know of a timed drill where one reassembles and loads a Glock, starting with the frame, adding a piece every five yards (slide, barrel, recoil spring assembly, magazine, round of ammunition), and puts a round in target at five yards . . .

 

[petepeterson]

That's a confusing drill. I'm not sure where that skill would apply. You should've thrown the empty pistol at the target and ran the other direction.

 

[Steve912]

That's a confusing drill. I'm not sure where that skill would apply.

...if you were attacked on the range some day, while cleaning your pistol??

Your extractor is designed to 'hinge' very little, to accommodate the width of the round's extractor groove, as the round slides up the breech face. The radius of the rim gradually pushes the extractor out, as the round slips up the breech face to align with the chamber.

Plunking a round into the chamber and releasing the slide forces the extractor face to cam (under mostly frontal pressure) further outboard, to get around the entire width of the round's case rim, all the while putting a stress on the front of the extractor that is about perfectly aligned, to snap off the extractor claw.

You might get away with it a time or twenty, or it might damage the extractor straight away.

Surprised the 'instructor' didn't mention that...

 

[petepeterson]

...if you were attacked on the range some day, while cleaning your pistol??

Your extractor is designed to 'hinge' very little, to accommodate the width of the round's extractor groove, as the round slides up the breech face. The radius of the rim gradually pushes the extractor out, as the round slips up the breech face to align with the chamber.

Plunking a round into the chamber and releasing the slide forces the extractor face to cam (under mostly frontal pressure) further outboard, to get around the entire width of the round's case rim, all the while putting a stress on the front of the extractor that is about perfectly aligned, to snap off the extractor claw.

You might get away with it a time or twenty, or it might damage the extractor straight away.

Surprised the 'instructor' didn't mention that...

Hey, Bruce Willis did it...you can, too. Or was it Mel Gibson?

 

[Laddy Smith]

Drill question

Did the instructor do this with every student?

That could really cause an incident with the less experienced, less practiced students. (Muzzle sweeps....trigger finger discipline.....)

Lad

 

[Alk8944]

...if you were attacked on the range some day, while cleaning your pistol??

Your extractor is designed to 'hinge' very little, to accommodate the width of the round's extractor groove, as the round slides up the breech face. The radius of the rim gradually pushes the extractor out, as the round slips up the breech face to align with the chamber.

Plunking a round into the chamber and releasing the slide forces the extractor face to cam (under mostly frontal pressure) further outboard, to get around the entire width of the round's case rim, all the while putting a stress on the front of the extractor that is about perfectly aligned, to snap off the extractor claw.

You might get away with it a time or twenty, or it might damage the extractor straight away.

Surprised the 'instructor' didn't mention that...

And you are going to take the time to load a round or two into the magazine, load it in the gun and rack the slide, all during the 1 1/2 seconds it takes the BG to charge you with the knife, all to protect the EXTRACTOR????? Why? So when the BG picks up your gun that you didn't get a shot off from, after he kills you, he will have a fully functional pistol?

I hope this sounds as stupid to you in retrospect as it did to me when you posted it!

OP took the best option for getting off a shot at the BG, successfully I might add, so what if the extractor has to be replaced??? Or isn't your life worth the $6-30 a new extractor costs?

 

[petepeterson]

And you are going to take the time to load a round or two into the magazine, load it in the gun and rack the slide, all during the 1 1/2 seconds it takes the BG to charge you with the knife, all to protect the EXTRACTOR????? Why? So when the BG picks up your gun that you didn't get a shot off from, after he kills you, he will have a fully functional pistol?

I hope this sounds as stupid to you in retrospect as it did to me when you posted it!

OP took the best option for getting off a shot at the BG, successfully I might add, so what if the extractor has to be replaced??? Or isn't your life worth the $6-30 a new extractor costs?

Before we get too critical...why were you in that place in that condition in the first place???

 

[rick1085]

Did the instructor do this with every student?

That could really cause an incident with the less experienced, less practiced students. (Muzzle sweeps....trigger finger discipline.....)

Lad

One on one - just me

 

[rick1085]

And you are going to take the time to load a round or two into the magazine, load it in the gun and rack the slide, all during the 1 1/2 seconds it takes the BG to charge you with the knife, all to protect the EXTRACTOR????? Why? So when the BG picks up your gun that you didn't get a shot off from, after he kills you, he will have a fully functional pistol?

I hope this sounds as stupid to you in retrospect as it did to me when you posted it!

OP took the best option for getting off a shot at the BG, successfully I might add, so what if the extractor has to be replaced??? Or isn't your life worth the $6-30 a new extractor costs?

I would happily replace the extractor several times over just to see the look on the instructor's face again.

 

[crazyphil]

If you think you might use OPs "tactic" be sure your gun does not have
a magazine safety disconnector or it will not go bang. I think they are
required in California?
P. S. I have watched Tueller's Drill too many times to believe the 21 foot
rule. It might be OK for the trained and practiced professional, but for
average Joe your in danger anywhere up to 50 feet.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Now my question is "why not"!

Cuz they were shooting S&W autoloaders with mag disconnects?

 

[P-229]

During my last CCW renewal class, my instructor had me do the following drill . Asked me to remove the magazine, unload the magazine. Then place the wepon, empty mag, and loose rounds on the bench in front of me. He then started a target moving towards me from about 10 yards. Told me the target was the bad guy with a knife and I should shoot it before it got to me. Assuming the purpose of the drill was to teach the 21 ft rule. What I did was picked up the gun and one bullet. Shoved the round in the chamber, slingshot the slide, and shot the target between the eyes. The instructor looked surprised and said no one had ever done that before.

Now my question is "why not"!

Wepon was a SIG P938

Sounds like your instructor was a moron.

 

[P-229]

I know of a timed drill where one reassembles and loads a Glock, starting with the frame, adding a piece every five yards (slide, barrel, recoil spring assembly, magazine, round of ammunition), and puts a round in target at five yards . . .

What was the educational objective of such a stunt? Is this something that happens in the real world?

 

[P-229]

A training scenario must be realistic. It can be complex. There must be a way to resolve it, based upon training, while surviving.

Most private training courses of which I've been told are stupid and unrealistic. Target shooting has nothing to do with surviving a gunfight. You'll need to learn tactical shooting.

When people start yacking incessantly about the importance of accuracy, I'm outta there. If you're worried about accuracy, it oughta be accuracy of a bad guy shooting at YOU!

There are two controlling rules of gunfighting:

1. Don't get in one (better to be a live witness than dead hero)

2. If Rule 1 is unavoidable, you cannot get shot. That means you cannot make yourself an easy target.

Situational awareness is crucial. Cops pay attention to the abnormal. 99.9 percent of people at a restaurant will be doing restaurant related things. It's the dude who isn't who'll get a cop's attention.

There is a direct correlation of risk factor and location. If you were to go to East LA, odds are much higher of an unfriendly encounter. That's why I go out of my way to avoid high crime areas. Paying more for dinner is worth avoiding bad people.

I don't carry a gun even though I legally can. I do not go to places claimed by bangers. If I were in a place where bad people might be, I'll leave, which is just what I did last Sunday at what was supposed to be a breast cancer fund raiser. I saw outlaw bikers flying their colors. I left. Odds are the sheriff had deputies mingling in the crowd.

A course ought to teach risk avoidance, identifying escape routes, running the heck away if possible, barrier identification, calling 911 and what to tell a dispatcher, how to reload while not losing sight picture (revolvers are not good self-defense choices) and a host of other REALISTIC tactics. An instructor must be able to coherently and cogently explain his curricula.

Putting a gun together and then firing is about a stupid a lesson as I've heard. Do people really believe that they're gonna be attacked while they're cleaning their guns?

Stay the hell away from high crime areas. Learn to identify potential threats. Walk away when you can. Avoid getting shot.And practice the heck outta tactical shooting and tactical reloading.

Remember that if you're in a gunfight it'll be because a bad guy wants to at room temperature.

 

[Muss Muggins]

What was the educational objective of such a stunt? Is this something that happens in the real world?

Using fine motor skills under pressure . . .