Babi Yar

[Beemerguy53]

...This reminds me of a conversation I had as a somewhat wayward youth in a "coffeehouse" run by the Jesuits in Greenwich Village back in the 60's.

I was sitting having a philosophical discussion with one of the priests late one night and asked him if, according to his faith and world view, an African tribal member who had never been exposed to Christianity could go to heaven. He told me they could not as they could only attain heaven through Christ and there was no allowance made if they had never heard of him or received instruction.

I asked him whether a person who was a philanthropist of another religion, or an atheist or just someone who didn't accept Jesus as his (or her) savior despite doing good deeds for mankind at great sacrifice to themselves could go to heaven...and he told me no they couldn't.

I told him that I didn't understand how a just and merciful God could turn his back on people who did good deeds and brought good to the world...but he was unrelenting in his mindset and conviction that they couldn't...

I went to Catholic schools for 12 years, and when I started 1st Grade in 1959, what you describe above was pretty much what I remember being taught. By the time I graduated from high school in '71, I think that position had softened considerably.

I don't know what the Church's doctrine is today on this subject -- I sure hope it's evolved -- but I doubt most mainstream Catholics think this way.

 

[JavierLaurido]

Paraguay's pre-war population of 525,000 was reduced to 221,000 of which only 28,000 were men. The war itself was the after effect of colonialism.

The reason they don't cry over it is because that was long ago.....a 150 years ago. ALL those people are long dead.

Good answer, but only two things.

As you have seen on Wikipedia, those numbers are only one of the interpretations, others stay what I have said, and I took what seemed the most trustfull and serious source; the Britanica Enciclopedia.

Also, about the attitude a country or group of people can embrace, says a lot. Maybe 150 years can be seen as too much, but I can show you the two sides of a coin; on one side, Paraguay suffered a huge tragedy, and they moved on (very manly from their part) and the events took place on 1864-1870.

On the other side, Bolivia lost a war against Chile on 1879 (only 9 years later), and they are still crying to the whole world on every chance they have about their tragedy, and the only thing they lost on that war, was a mostly abandon province that had a seaport, and cause of that they got landlocked. They didnt got their people masacred, their army escaped mostly intact, but no matter that, Chile got a lawsuit at the Haya International Court on 2015 for events carried on, 150 years ago.

What I intend to say, is that you can move on, as an individual, a group, or a country, on a manly way as Paraguay did, or you can go through the whole world crying and spreading your tales of missery, to get attention or to satisfy your agendas. Personally I preffer the Paraguayan way.

Again, pardon for my bad english.

 

[blues7]

Thats exactly the feeling a lot of people gets (I am part of that group). From all the people, minorities, tribes, etc hunted and massacred during WWII, the Jews continuosly show to the world, they were THE ones that suffer. I have never been on Israel (so I can be mistaken), but I have the feeling that on their holocaust museums, theres no reference at all, to Gypsis, or others who suffered too.

And on a personal perception, I have meet various modern Jews ON MY country, and what I specialy perceive from them, is just that; Elitism. Saddly, but that doesent works good on their image.

Perhaps that last portion of your post is what is coloring other aspects of this and previous posts.

You may dislike the brash or arrogant behavior, perceived or real, and using that to dismiss the undeniable horror that they, as a people, experienced and have experienced over two millennia.

While many, many millions suffered atrocities at the hands of the nazis and other despots during WWII, I don't think it would be fair to equate the suffering of other groups to the (attempted) wholesale eradication of an entire people by the regimes and their all too willing cohorts. On an individual level, certainly. Agony is agony and misery, misery. But on a broader, systemic level, no.

That Jews were singled out in the most demonic and brutal fashion imaginable from the slow strangulation brought about via changes of the law and business practices, to the mass deportations, slave labor and wholesale extermination via bullet, gas, starvation, beatings and other means...I fail to see how one can dispute the magnitude of the atrocity perpetrated upon them. The numbers alone speak volumes. The methodology only makes it that much more sinister and vile.

 

[cmort666]

Now then, I've confessed to not being a historian, and I have learned a lot I didn't know from reading the posts on this thread...but I am unable to think of any similar event -- at least in recent history -- where a nation invaded other nations, conquered them, and then rounded up innocent, non-combatant members of a specific ethnic group, and transported them to a facility designed for the sole purpose of killing them.

Quite true.

The Japanese persecuted the ethnic Chinese in South-East Asia.

They DIDN'T ship them off to Korea to be gassed.

The only thing that comes close in concept is Stalin's various ethnic "cleansings", of the Poles in particular. Even then the idea was not to ELIMINATE ethnic Poles but to segregate them in isolated areas where they could have no contact with Poland. Needless to say, Stalin didn't care how many of them died in the process.

 

[Beemerguy53]

Thats exactly the feeling a lot of people gets (I am part of that group). From all the people, minorities, tribes, etc hunted and massacred during WWII, the Jews continuosly show to the world, they were THE ones that suffer. I have never been on Israel (so I can be mistaken), but I have the feeling that on their holocaust museums, theres no reference at all, to Gypsis, or others who suffered too.

Well...your "feeling" would be wrong. I have visited Holocaust museums and memorials both here in the USA and in Germany, and there is always prominent mention of the other groups that were targeted for persecution and/or extermination by the Nazis. No one I've met claims that Jews were the only victims of the Third Reich. Gypsies, homosexuals, clergymen of all faiths, intellectuals, Communists, and many others were persecuted, and their stories are told as well. To the extent anyone thinks of the Holocaust as mostly affecting Jews, that is understandable, given the hugely disproportionate number of Jews who were victimized.

And on a personal perception, I have meet various modern Jews ON MY country, and what I specialy perceive from them, is just that; Elitism. Saddly, but that doesent works good on their image.

Perhaps what you perceive is what you are expecting to perceive.

 

[Beemerguy53]

...The only thing that comes close in concept is Stalin's various ethnic "cleansings", of the Poles in particular. Even then the idea was not to ELIMINATE ethnic Poles but to segregate them in isolated areas where they could have no contact with Poland. Needless to say, Stalin didn't care how many of them died in the process.

I have a close friend whose father was Latvian. When the Russians invaded the Baltic States around 1940, hundred of thousands of Latvians were spirited off, never to be seen again. As I understand it, they were people who were thought to represent some threat to Russian control. No one knows for sure what happened to them...presumably they were shipped off to the Gulag...

 

[JavierLaurido]

Perhaps that last portion of your post is what is coloring other aspects of this and previous posts.

You may dislike the brash or arrogant behavior, perceived or real, and using that to dismiss the undeniable horror that they, as a people, experienced and have experienced over two millennia.

Blues, of course, when someone has a feeling, that feeling tries to affect your whole judgement. But beleive me or not, I have tried my best to separate things, answering as much sincere and impartial one can be. And been honest to myself, I think I did it.

Showing a personal perception, its part of been honest, with the rest and with yourself. But that in any way made me colored or dismiss the experience the Jews had suffered. Simply I have an opinion Texmex explained it far better.

Also, thank you sincerely, for your well educated replies. I feel them with respect and without bad anymosity.

Best regards to everyone. I wish you a nice weekend.

 

[blues7]

Like Beemerguy53, I too have visited a holocaust museum...in Paris.

It was a very moving experience and the venue is dedicated to all those who were deported at the hands of the Vichy government in collaboration with the nazis. It was moving, to say the least, to see the name of my cousin's father inscribed among the names of hundreds of thousands of other innocents who were tragically deprived of life, liberty and the love of their families.

 

[cmort666]

I have a close friend whose father was Latvian. When the Russians invaded the Baltic States around 1940, hundred of thousands of Latvians were spirited off, never to be seen again. As I understand it, they were people who were thought to represent some threat to Russian control. No one knows for sure what happened to them...presumably they were shipped off to the Gulag...

I would suspect that, like the Poles, some were shot, some were worked to death in camps, and others were simply relocated to less than welcoming communities in the middle of nowhere, especially places like Kazakhstan. Many of the latter died through hunger and neglect, as ZERO prior effort was exerted to provide them with a livelihood or accommodations. They were just put on trains and [the survivors] dumped.

 

[Absalom]

Thats exactly the feeling a lot of people gets (I am part of that group). From all the people, minorities, tribes, etc hunted and massacred during WWII, the Jews continuosly show to the world, they were THE ones that suffer. I have never been on Israel (so I can be mistaken), but I have the feeling that on their holocaust museums, theres no reference at all, to Gypsis, or others who suffered too.

And on a personal perception, I have meet various modern Jews ON MY country, and what I specialy perceive from them, is just that; Elitism. Saddly, but that doesent works good on their image.

Please do not misunderstand this as a personal criticism, but in a way your characterization demonstrates perfectly the way "the Jews" were re-invented by the new racists of Europe in the 19th century (after genetics were discovered).

Western European Jews had largely been assimilated since the enlightenment, were mostly non-religious, and were invisible as a group, just like they are today in all countries but Israel.

Contrary to your way of expression, "the Jews" are nothing, including elitist, because "the Jews" don't exist. Before 1948, the Jews were not much more than a large number of individual victims, and even since then, a much larger number than live in Israel is spread out all over the world as ordinary citizens of other countries, many of whom don't even support Israel's policies.

"The Jews" are nothing more than a foil for people who need someone, "the other", to project their dislikes and hatreds on. That's why anti-semitism is so intellectually incoherent and you get people who believe Jews to be revolutionary Communists and filthy-rich capitalists at the same time.

And that's what makes the Holocaust special. The Jews were re-created as the universal enemy, and then killed for everybody else's sins, so to speak.

The 6 million are unique. And that does not at all imply a lack of respect for the other 45 million dead of WW II, for the 20 million or so victims of Soviet terror, or your dead of Paraguay. But piles of corpses aren't a popularity contest. And unfortunately, comparisons are too often employed by those people who mean to imply that the Nazis really weren't that bad. They were.

 

[Old TexMex]

So Jews don't exist? I believe a number of the worlds population would dispute that.
World Jewish Congress
Only an elitist would assert such a thing, or someone who didn't know there were Bolsheviks on "this side of the Atlantic", and that would constitute ignorance.

 

[cmort666]

So Jews don't exist? I believe a number of the worlds population would dispute that.

Only an elitist would assert such a thing.

In modern day Europe they're trying to keep as low a profile as possible. Anything else can get them killed.

 

[Old TexMex]

In modern day Europe they're trying to keep as low a profile as possible. Anything else can get them killed.

Absolutely. Due to an invasion by a nation which has proclaimed itself, but is not recognized by the general world community (though supported by many millions).

 

[Absalom]

So Jews don't exist? I believe a number of the worlds population would dispute that.
World Jewish Congress
Only an elitist would assert such a thing, or someone who didn't know there were Bolsheviks on "this side of the Atlantic", and that would constitute ignorance.

Yes, I know. The elite of those still tethered to reality. You know, those Jews are probably hiding under your bed. With the Bolsheviks. And George Soros. Wearing Che t-shirts.

 

[the ringo kid]

Paraguay's pre-war population of 525,000 was reduced to 221,000 of which only 28,000 were men. The war itself was the after effect of colonialism.

The reason they don't cry over it is because that was long ago.....a 150 years ago. ALL those people are long dead. Life moves on. Holocaust is still fairly recent. A lot of the people involved in the Holocaust and WW2 are still alive, their memories are still alive. It's only been 3 - 4 generations. My grandfather was involved in that meanwhile I don't even know any relatives from 1900, let alone 1870. Many bad things could have happened in Europe in 1870. They could have happened to my family but I don't cry about it because I don't even know it or them. We will not be around for it but the same thing will happen with the Holocaust and WW2. In another 100 years it will just be something that happened in history long ago

That's 304,000 Paraguayan dead. Of course this is a horrible thing. But...

Jews 5.93 million
Soviet POW 2 - 3 million
Ethnic Poles 2 million
Serbs 300,000–500,000
Disabled 270,000
Gypsies 90,000 - 220,000
Freemasons 80,000 - 220,000
Slovenes 20,000 - 25,000
Gay 5,000 - 15,000
Jehovah's witness 2,500 - 5,000
Spanish Republicans 7,000

So almost 6 million Jews. If you're looking by country
-Poland lost 90% of their Jewish population (3 million)
-Germany & Austria 90% (210,000)
- Baltic States 90% (228,000)

There are many more countries and I'm not going to list them all but the total European Jewish population was reduced by 67%

"that the holocaust is always represented as a jew race issue, and not a polish, hungarian, german, or french jew issue"

Correct. It's just a considered a Jewish issue because it's both religion and nationality. If you're Jewish you don't consider yourself a French Jew or a German, Polish, Paraguayan Jew. You consider yourself a Jew who lives in France, Germany, Poland, Paraguay. It's not just a religion. One group living in different countries.

Rwanda was a separate issue. Hutus didn't go looking for Tutsi in other countries and the reason itself dates back to the colonial era when the Germans and Belgians considers the Tutsi more white and thus superior to the Hutus. They put Tutsi in charge while the Hutu were oppressed by the Europeans and their Tutsi backed government. By 1960 Belgium had reversed it's opinion and started to remove the Tutsi from power and replacing them with Hutu. All this European meddling caused animosity between the two groups.
By the way this is another case of where the Europeans decded who's more superior.

Same can be said with the with Yugoslavia. The Muslim vs Eastern Orthodox vs Catholic. It was a war in its country....a civil war. Neither of the groups went out looking for their enemies outside of Yugoslavia.


To get back on kinda on topic and to stay with the Paraguay tragedy of 1870.... I present to you Eastern Europen Pogrom. Word means violence to massacre a ethnic or religious group.

The persecution dates back to the Black Death in Europe where people thought the plague was started by Jews. In 1349 900 Jews were burned alive in Flanders on February 14th. In 1370 the Brussels massacre completely wiped out the Jewish community in Belgium.

Modern pogrom started in the 1600s in Ukraine where Cossacks killed between 50,000 - 100,000 Jewish men women and children. In 1880s there were 200 pogroms against the Jews, who were blamed for the assassination of Alexander II. During the Russian civil war there were 1200 pogroms. The Kiev pogrom of 1919 saw 30,000 - 70,000 Jews killed across Ukraine. Between 1880s and 1920s there were 1300 pogroms in Ukraine which killed 70,000 to 250,000 civilian Jews. Only 20 years later WW2 happened

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Well said but, between hitler and joe steel, the actual cost of Russian lives lost-will easiy be in the tens of millions. Some estimates range up to 40 million.

 

[Old TexMex]

Yes, I know. The elite of those still tethered to reality. You know, those Jews are probably hiding under your bed. With the Bolsheviks. And George Soros. Wearing Che t-shirts.

That response is about as foolish as a good part of your prior.
Apparently your world is rather small, and your attitude extremely defensive, dismissive and rather valueless in debate.

Stating the nonexistance of a Jewish people who are indeed proud of their heritage and openly recognized, the denial of the existance of membership in the Bolshevik Party of Cuban revolutionaries and denigration of Native American races (though you did crawfish a bit on that one, thanks)

Perhaps you should get out more.
Or at least read the posts. You infer that I suggest Jewish association with the Bolsheviks, which I did not and do not.(that was someone elses post)

 

[Absalom]

That response is about as foolish as a good part of your prior.
Apparently your world is rather small, and your attitude extremely defensive, dismissive and rather valueless in debate.
.....

Sorry. I wouldn't agree it was foolish, but it was a personal attack for which I apologize.

I have read enough of your post to understand your worldview. I won't ever accept your "facts", and you won't accept mine. If we ever met, we would not get along. Even though apart from politics, I'm sure you're a nice guy. I'm too.

Good day.

 

[Old TexMex]

Paraguay's pre-war population of 525,000 was reduced to 221,000 of which only 28,000 were men. The war itself was the after effect of colonialism.

The reason they don't cry over it is because that was long ago.....a 150 years ago. ALL those people are long dead. Life moves on. Holocaust is still fairly recent. A lot of the people involved in the Holocaust and WW2 are still alive, their memories are still alive. It's only been 3 - 4 generations. My grandfather was involved in that meanwhile I don't even know any relatives from 1900, let alone 1870. Many bad things could have happened in Europe in 1870. They could have happened to my family but I don't cry about it because I don't even know it or them. We will not be around for it but the same thing will happen with the Holocaust and WW2. In another 100 years it will just be something that happened in history long ago

That's 304,000 Paraguayan dead. Of course this is a horrible thing. But...

Jews 5.93 million
Soviet POW 2 - 3 million
Ethnic Poles 2 million
Serbs 300,000–500,000
Disabled 270,000
Gypsies 90,000 - 220,000
Freemasons 80,000 - 220,000
Slovenes 20,000 - 25,000
Gay 5,000 - 15,000
Jehovah's witness 2,500 - 5,000
Spanish Republicans 7,000

So almost 6 million Jews. If you're looking by country
-Poland lost 90% of their Jewish population (3 million)
-Germany & Austria 90% (210,000)
- Baltic States 90% (228,000)

There are many more countries and I'm not going to list them all but the total European Jewish population was reduced by 67%

"that the holocaust is always represented as a jew race issue, and not a polish, hungarian, german, or french jew issue"

Correct. It's just a considered a Jewish issue because it's both religion and nationality. If you're Jewish you don't consider yourself a French Jew or a German, Polish, Paraguayan Jew. You consider yourself a Jew who lives in France, Germany, Poland, Paraguay. It's not just a religion. One group living in different countries.

Rwanda was a separate issue. Hutus didn't go looking for Tutsi in other countries and the reason itself dates back to the colonial era when the Germans and Belgians considers the Tutsi more white and thus superior to the Hutus. They put Tutsi in charge while the Hutu were oppressed by the Europeans and their Tutsi backed government. By 1960 Belgium had reversed it's opinion and started to remove the Tutsi from power and replacing them with Hutu. All this European meddling caused animosity between the two groups.
By the way this is another case of where the Europeans decded who's more superior.

Same can be said with the with Yugoslavia. The Muslim vs Eastern Orthodox vs Catholic. It was a war in its country....a civil war. Neither of the groups went out looking for their enemies outside of Yugoslavia.


To get back on kinda on topic and to stay with the Paraguay tragedy of 1870.... I present to you Eastern Europen Pogrom. Word means violence to massacre a ethnic or religious group.

The persecution dates back to the Black Death in Europe where people thought the plague was started by Jews. In 1349 900 Jews were burned alive in Flanders on February 14th. In 1370 the Brussels massacre completely wiped out the Jewish community in Belgium.

Modern pogrom started in the 1600s in Ukraine where Cossacks killed between 50,000 - 100,000 Jewish men women and children. In 1880s there were 200 pogroms against the Jews, who were blamed for the assassination of Alexander II. During the Russian civil war there were 1200 pogroms. The Kiev pogrom of 1919 saw 30,000 - 70,000 Jews killed across Ukraine. Between 1880s and 1920s there were 1300 pogroms in Ukraine which killed 70,000 to 250,000 civilian Jews. Only 20 years later WW2 happened

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How, therefore could these murders happen to Jews, for, according to one of our debaters here, the Jews don't exist?

Pardon my pointed sarcasm, your posts are clear accurate and intelligent.

 

[Old TexMex]

Sorry. I wouldn't agree it was foolish, but it was a personal attack for which I apologize.

I have read enough of your post to understand your worldview. I won't ever accept your "facts", and you won't accept mine. If we ever met, we would not get along. Even though apart from politics, I'm sure you're a nice guy. I'm too.

Good day.

No, wrong again. I'm not a nice guy.

 

[pharris]

While we are choosing which genocides are worthy of remembering we don't have to look very far from the good old USA. Part of Hitler's justification for his final solution was the treatment of native Americans and blacks by the American government. l suppose that relocating practically every tribe from their home territories to reservations doesn't qualify as concentration camps and using small pox, measles etc. to decimate entire populations wouldn't qualify as using modern technology but it seemed to work just fine. And some estimates put the number of Native Americans killed in the 400 years of occasional massacres at 20 million lives. Lest we forget.