Why are law enforcement agencies issuing Glocks?

[Franklin]

Our local Sheriff's Dept has multiple holes in the wall at the cleaning table.....

 

[Skeet 028]

If you read that..if you have more ADs percentage wise with one type over another it means there is a problem of some sort that is not being addressed. As in your example of fighter jets. There is an inherent problem that is not being either trained for or fixed. That means there will be more problems until all issues are fixed. When there were mostly revolvers there may have been less ADs than with semi autos that are more prevalent now. Not saying it hasn't happened but there seems to have been much less ADS with 1911s and their clones with probably how many 10s of millions being used since 1911. Is no correlation there?? I am a revolver type of guy but have carried 45 autos since at least 1966. There is no way to argue the fact that Glock has bought the market selling them to so many PDs and militaries at such a low price point while taking former police dept guns in on trade. Not saying that is underhanded cause it is marketing. Womder why didn't our military go with Glock in the past? Or this time? They fixed the problems with most of the jets with training and discontinuing the ones that were inherently dangerous. Not going to argue..just pointing out there have been crappy planes as well as guns. Heck didn't the French have a rifle with no safety? ..Oh but they didn't give their troops any ammo until they got shot at first..right?LOL

 

[cmort666]

Heck didn't the French have a rifle with no safety? ..Oh but they didn't give their troops any ammo until they got shot at first..right?LOL

Until the MAS 49, virtually NO general issue French rifles had safeties. They carried them with an empty chamber.

 

[blues7]

It's All Fun Until Someone Loses An Eye

"I knew I shouldn't have gotten a Glock!"

 

[Doc Hollywood]

I have a Beretta m9. A lot of people talk **** about them that have never used them. I put the 92g decocker in instead of the safety and put a Wilson reduced power spring kit in. On a good day I can place every round on 10" steel at 25 yards as fast as I can physically pull the trigger and bring the muzzle down. I don't understand why a gun like mine can't be issued, I feel it would mitigate some of this.

 

[Wise_A]

Only with certain hunting types. Wouldn't get a rabbit quail or pheasant with an empty gun.

That's why I said, "where possible"...

Even still hunting deer is done with a loaded gun.

...and "until one is at their stand/blind/whatever".

And it doesn't matter how many of a certain type of are is in the hands of people. If more AD/NDs happen with one type of firearm percentage wise it is usually some type of problem with that firearm...even if it is with lack of training to solve that problem

Except it's not percentage-wise. That's what we keep telling you.

Our local Sheriff's Dept has multiple holes in the wall at the cleaning table.....

Cops are terrible with that sort of thing. But then again, an LEO loads and unloads their pistol way more than any private citizen does, so--statistics!

The problem, me thinks, is policy and design in that case. There should be a "safe unloading" area outside the various ready rooms and cleaning table and such. A 55-gallon drum of sand works, and there are various bullet-catching pads that can be purchased as well. Since it's inside a building with no real "safe" wall, set up a couple in the cleaning area, too.

First, make a policy that all firearms are to be unloaded at the designated areas prior to proceeding. Require also that any time a firearm's trigger must be pulled in the process of disassembly, assembly, or function-checking, the muzzle must be pointed at one of these bullet-catchers.

Any deputy found to have a loaded firearm after that point gets a free mandatory Basic Pistol Safety class--on his own time, not the county's. Second offense is full retraining and a letter in their jacket. Third is a suspension and another letter.

Any deputy who has an ND outside the cleaning area that strikes the bullet-catcher gets a verbal reprimand for the discharge, but also a note that they practiced proper muzzle discipline.

NDs inside the cleaning area that strike the bullet-catcher get the free Basic Pistol Safety class and a letter (again, noting muzzle discipline).

NDs inside the cleaning area that fail to strike the bullet catcher get a week off to ruminate on their life choices. Second time is bye-bye.

 

[neorebel]

I'm the Firearms Instructor for my Sheriff's Office in Missouri and there's no problem out here with AD's. Keep your finger out of the trigger area and along side the slide until you need to use it. It's that simple. Glocks are great guns. I carry a model 19 Talo edition in my rotation. Glocks do not forgive the ignorant user. There's no safety except on the trigger and your brain.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

A coworker of mine and I were talking about the situation and he said that back when he worked in Los Angeles there was a rash of LA county deputies shooting themselves and others when the department switched from Berretta 92's to the S&W M&P's. I would think that agencies would either issue weapons with some safety features or train these guys to stay off the trigger. What gives?

Based on what I've read... There was a significant increase of unintentional discharges when switching from the 92 to the S&W, but that didn't translate to more injuries-- 2/year before, 2/year after.

"Why" did they switch? In part it's been reported that the decision was motivated by a threat of a lawsuit by women failing the Sheriff's Academy firearms test. Wanted a smaller handgun to better fit their smaller hands.

Reasons for the increase?

Here are some excerpts from the Inspector General's reports.

Of note, the analysis revealed two primary causal factors which may explain the increase in unintentional discharges:

*  Poor trigger discipline and
*  Failure to adhere to the Four Basic Firearms Safety Rules.17

In fact, the Weapons Training Unit analysis found in all but two of the thirty-one 2014 unintended discharge incidents, the employee had his finger on the trigger when the firearm discharged. The two exceptions occurred when an object, a coat hook and a portable radio antenna, respectively, caught on the trigger of an M&P pistol. The authors of the analysis noted that until 2002, LASD personnel were trained, "on target, on trigger," meaning that as a deputy is pointing his or her Beretta 92F at a target the finger would be on the trigger. According to interviews we conducted, in 2002, the training curriculum was updated so that deputies were taught to keep their trigger finger along the frame of the pistol and off the trigger until he or she made the decision to shoot. According to the Weapons Training Unit report, older deputies often kept the prior learned practice of resting their finger on the trigger, despite the new training. The report's authors concluded "that the practice of 'riding the trigger' has resulted in an increase in unintentional discharges."

Our review found no instances where the deputy actually had his M&P "on target" when a reported unintended discharge occurred. In fact, during interviews, some LASD staff expressed the opinion that many deputies habitually placed their fingers on the trigger in a potentially adversarial setting even when not pointing their gun at a suspect. The presence or absence of an external safety lever is not as relevant in tactical circumstances, as once a deputy draws a pistol in a potentially adversarial setting, he or she would generally flip the safety to the "off" position when using the Beretta 92F. If the deputy rests a finger on the trigger as a matter of habit whenever the handgun is drawn, the 6.5 pound trigger pull of the M&P would make an unintended discharge significantly more likely than with the 92F's 11.5 pound trigger pull (for the first round fired).

https://oig.lacounty.gov/Portals/OIG/Reports/Unintended Discharge Report.pdf

 

[cmort666]

I'm the Firearms Instructor for my Sheriff's Office in Missouri and there's no problem out here with AD's. Keep your finger out of the trigger area and along side the slide until you need to use it. It's that simple. Glocks are great guns. I carry a model 19 Talo edition in my rotation. Glocks do not forgive the ignorant user. There's no safety except on the trigger and your brain.

I like to say that the Glock is like the C programming language.

C will do anything of which it's capable that you tell it, no matter how stupid. If you tell it to overrun the end of an array, it'll cheerfully do so.

If you point a Glock at your foot and pull the trigger, it'll shoot you.

Don't want your Glock to go off? Don't pull the trigger.

 

[Faulkner]

Our local Sheriff's Dept has multiple holes in the wall at the cleaning table.....

Ours doesn't.

 

[Kanewpadle]

I taught my wife and daughter how to shoot as well as many others. I always told them that they didn't need to be afraid of the gun unless it was pointed at them or they did something stupid. I also told them that YOU control the gun. Don't let the gun control you.

It's simply amazing that there has to be a long drawn out discussion about gun safety. The rules apply at all times.

Glock has three passive safeties that are disengaged when the trigger is pulled. A trigger safety, firing pin safety, and drop safety. The "tang" on the trigger is NOT a drop safety. So what does that tell you? Keep your figure off the trigger. Millions and millions of Glock pistols have been sold around the world. If the gun was deemed unsafe, we would have heard about it.

 

[cmort666]

I taught my wife and daughter how to shoot as well as many others. I always told them that they didn't need to be afraid of the gun unless it was pointed at them or they did something stupid. I also told them that YOU control the gun. Don't let the gun control you.

It's simply amazing that there has to be a long drawn out discussion about gun safety. The rules apply at all times.

Glock has three passive safeties that are disengaged when the trigger is pulled. A trigger safety, firing pin safety, and drop safety. The "tang" on the trigger is NOT a drop safety. So what does that tell you? Keep your figure off the trigger. Millions and millions of Glock pistols have been sold around the world. If the gun was deemed unsafe, we would have heard about it.

It's a question of governmental entities trying to substitute gadgets for proper training, personal responsibility and common sense.

I've seen people get absolutely belligerent in their assertions that you CAN'T teach the basics of firearms safety to cops.

I simply don't believe it. If we applied that "reasoning" across the board, cops would be driving Amish buggies instead of Crown Vics... until a horse got spooked and trampled somebody. Then it'd be bicycles, inevitably followed by shoe leather.

 

[okiegtrider]

Millions and millions of Glock pistols have been sold around the world. If the gun was deemed unsafe, we would have heard about it.

I thought this whole thread was about deeming these things unsafe.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Glock has three passive safeties that are disengaged when the trigger is pulled. A trigger safety, firing pin safety, and drop safety. The "tang" on the trigger is NOT a drop safety. So what does that tell you? Keep your figure off the trigger. Millions and millions of Glock pistols have been sold around the world. If the gun was deemed unsafe, we would have heard about it.

Just a point of parliamentary procedure, but the "drop safety" is so named because the trigger bar "drops" off the safety ramp as the trigger is pressed rearward, disengaging from the firing pin and allowing it to move forward, firing the pistol. The trigger safety, on the other hand, and I quote from the Armorer's Manual, "is designed to prevent accidental firing when the pistol is dropped or subjected to an off-center lateral pressure or similar force."

 

[Arik]

Womder why didn't our military go with Glock in the past? Or this time?

They Army specifically asked for a modular system, something which Glock doesn't have. In fact the only company that has a modular system is Sig.

The military has gone with and still uses Glocks.

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[Arik]

Based on what I've read... There was a significant increase of unintentional discharges when switching from the 92 to the S&W, but that didn't translate to more injuries-- 2/year before, 2/year after.

"Why" did they switch? In part it's been reported that the decision was motivated by a threat of a lawsuit by women failing the Sheriff's Academy firearms test. Wanted a smaller handgun to better fit their smaller hands.

Reasons for the increase?

Here are some excerpts from the Inspector General's reports.

Of note, the analysis revealed two primary causal factors which may explain the increase in unintentional discharges:

*  Poor trigger discipline and
*  Failure to adhere to the Four Basic Firearms Safety Rules.17

In fact, the Weapons Training Unit analysis found in all but two of the thirty-one 2014 unintended discharge incidents, the employee had his finger on the trigger when the firearm discharged. The two exceptions occurred when an object, a coat hook and a portable radio antenna, respectively, caught on the trigger of an M&P pistol. The authors of the analysis noted that until 2002, LASD personnel were trained, "on target, on trigger," meaning that as a deputy is pointing his or her Beretta 92F at a target the finger would be on the trigger. According to interviews we conducted, in 2002, the training curriculum was updated so that deputies were taught to keep their trigger finger along the frame of the pistol and off the trigger until he or she made the decision to shoot. According to the Weapons Training Unit report, older deputies often kept the prior learned practice of resting their finger on the trigger, despite the new training. The report's authors concluded "that the practice of 'riding the trigger' has resulted in an increase in unintentional discharges."

Our review found no instances where the deputy actually had his M&P "on target" when a reported unintended discharge occurred. In fact, during interviews, some LASD staff expressed the opinion that many deputies habitually placed their fingers on the trigger in a potentially adversarial setting even when not pointing their gun at a suspect. The presence or absence of an external safety lever is not as relevant in tactical circumstances, as once a deputy draws a pistol in a potentially adversarial setting, he or she would generally flip the safety to the "off" position when using the Beretta 92F. If the deputy rests a finger on the trigger as a matter of habit whenever the handgun is drawn, the 6.5 pound trigger pull of the M&P would make an unintended discharge significantly more likely than with the 92F's 11.5 pound trigger pull (for the first round fired).

https://oig.lacounty.gov/Portals/OIG/Reports/Unintended Discharge Report.pdf

Let's not let research get in the way of feelings or one video shown 100 times....... Somehow means it happened a 100 times

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[spacestuff4me]

I'm one of the Beretta 92 haters for a few reasons. I knew some of the USN guys testing the 92 back in the 80's, they experienced slide cracks and in one well known story, the gun experienced a catastrophic failure, throwing the rear breech block into a sailors eye blinding him.

If you want to argue that these test guns were using +P or MG loads, ok, or that these test guns were being shot excessively or even that dirt, mud, salt water and other debris contributed to the failure, point taken. HOWEVER..... Every other gun tested was subjected to the same conditions but none of them suffered a catastrophic failure like the 92.

The 92's ergonomics make it a nice gun to shoot, managable recoil, accurate, reliable and easy to use, but a bit bulky compared to many others. Problem is it's a weak design with inherent structural problems dating back to it's P38 roots. That and the fact is that Beretta allegedly bribed a few US Generals to choose the 92, over CLEARLY superior designs by S&W, Ruger, HK, Sig, Browning and Glock.

The US military has mandated that all 92 slides be inspected every 1.5k rounds and replaced every 3k rounds. I have Hk's, BHP, Glock, Colts, S&W and other guns with tens of thousands of rounds fired and not one failure like the 92. Why would anyone risk their life on a weak design, when there are so many better quality guns that will not fail.

Lest you think I'm a Sig fan, sorry, I've broken 3 226 and a 228 frame with factory ammo. I'm very disappointed with the Sig being named as the 92 replacement, another weak design that has great ergonomics but poorly executed for longevity and reliability.

 

[cmort666]

The 92's ergonomics make it a nice gun to shoot, managable recoil, accurate, reliable and easy to use, but a bit bulky compared to many others.

ONLY if you have big hands and or long fingers.

I've shot the 96 and you couldn't pay me enough to carry one. I find the trigger reach very uncomfortable. The trigger itself? Nightmarish. Not as bad as a Colt All-American 2000, but BAD.

There's no DA/SA or DAO pistol which I would willingly carry, besides a Walther PPK, and then as a pocket gun. I simply can't stand the triggers, and in any of the double column magazine guns, the trigger reach is sub-optimal.

Glock, S&W M&P, FNX, etc., are all vastly superior for me.

The last full sized DA/SA gun I owned was a Walther P-38. It will indeed be the LAST.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Just a point of parliamentary procedure, but the "drop safety" is so named because the trigger bar "drops" off the safety ramp as the trigger is pressed rearward, disengaging from the firing pin and allowing it to move forward, firing the pistol. The trigger safety, on the other hand, and I quote from the Armorer's Manual, "is designed to prevent accidental firing when the pistol is dropped or subjected to an off-center lateral pressure or similar force."

In your own words "Duly Noted".

 

[Faulkner]

It's a question of governmental entities trying to substitute gadgets for proper training, personal responsibility and common sense.

I've seen people get absolutely belligerent in their assertions that you CAN'T teach the basics of firearms safety to cops.

I simply don't believe it. If we applied that "reasoning" across the board, cops would be driving Amish buggies instead of Crown Vics... [\b]until a horse got spooked and trampled somebody. Then it'd be bicycles, inevitably followed by shoe leather.

Just for the record, Crown Vic's have petty much got the way of the horse in law enforcement.