3913: I Just Can't Shoot this Pistol

[Road Rat]

I am so glad that someone else "can't shoot the 3913xxx". After all the talk about what a grand firearm they 3913's are I had to have one. Found one on-line and ordered it up. Took it to the range a couple of times and out in the back yard a few....had my son shoot it..............

Neither of us liked it; couldn't shoot it; took it to the next local gun show and traded it to a dealer for a S&W 19-2............WOW....Now, I'm happy!

edit - fatfingered the model LOL. Traded for a 19-2.

 

[Double-O-Dave]

As others have indicated, sometimes, the firearm just doesn't fit - no matter how hard you try, or want it to. I've tried on two different occasions two different S&W handguns in the 6900 series. Neither time worked for me. I couldn't hit what I was aiming at, others had no problems killing the "X" ring. I consider myself a competent shooter, and used to shoot competitively with some success. I finally concluded that the S&W 6900 series just doesn't work for me. Same story with the Sig Sauer P-220.

Also, I'm struck by one thing you wrote: "...I also own a 6906 which is overly large for me necessitating me rotating my hand slightly to get a good trigger squeeze, but I don't have trouble shooting where I'm aiming with the 6906." Have you tried using something like a Hogue HandAll grip on your 3913: HandAll Universal Grip Sleeves - Handgun Grips - Hogue Products

Good luck,

Dave

 

[lwestatbus]

More Information

Here is some more information on the pistol and some responses to the later posts in this thread.

Second, the trigger on the 3913 is HEAVY

I took the pistol to a local gunsmith I'd located who has experience with S&Ws of all types. He measured the trigger pull and found it was 7.5 lbs!!! Ouch. His partner in the shop called it a "cop trigger" which made a lot of sense but which doesn't help with my issue.

I have to ask - did you change the recoil spring (part #100950000)? Something as simple and cheap as that may affect the accuracy.

I discussed options with the gunsmith. He said he absolutely would not do any work on the seer for liability reasons and I concur with that assessment. We did discuss changing the hammer spring (not recoil spring). He's aware of an approach where you buy a couple of new hammer springs and start trimming coils from one to see if the reduced pressure on the hammer reduces the trigger pull. More on this in a bit.

Have you tried using something like a Hogue HandAll grip on your 3913: HandAll Universal Grip Sleeves - Handgun Grips - Hogue Products

Looked these products up and might consider them but I already have the thicker Hogue grips for this pistol installed.

Lots of good advice already in this thread, and since I just spent the weekend helping a friend get used to shooting his new 908, I'll add a few ideas.

First, coming from 1911 semi-auto's, the 3913 trigger is going to take some practice to get right. I've found 1911's to be the easiest pistols to shoot accurately, but they kind of spoil you for a TDA trigger like this. To start, I would recommend doing a lot of dry-fire practice with your 3913's DA trigger pull. Think of it as building muscle strength and memory, and don't go overly slow to begin with or get caught up on you're sight picture or being perfect. Get your hand used to the trigger pull and weight, with a secondary goal of trying to keep the gun steady while you're doing this. After the gun feels more natural in hand from this practice, slow the pull down and concentrate on more finesse with a smooth trigger break and steady front sight.

Secondly, I prefer to place the pad (or middle) of the end of the finger on the trigger when shooting. This seems to me to be the best way to mitigate shooting to the left.

Lastly, leaning forward with your stance, locking the elbows out, and keeping a firm (but not a shaky death grip) on the gun while firing will give you a good base and hopefully help with the shots 'dipping.'

I'm sure that you already have heard some of this advice, but basically what I'm stressing is doing lots of dry-fire practice off the range to get yourself used to this pistol. It pays huge dividends at the range (and can save lots of money too).

Best of luck with your 3913!

Terc, You seem to have primarily been writing about dealing with the DA trigger but, given what I know about the trigger weight in SA some of this advice is going to be relevant. See immediately below.

Here's what I've decided to do:

I'm going to keep the pistol and see if I can learn how to deal with the heavy trigger. This is going to necessitate learning some new techniques but I'll stop this effort if it interferes with muscle memory on my other handguns. The 3913 will probably never go into regular carry rotation given my confidence issues with precision aimed fire but will be a back-up resource in case of a zombie apocalypse. I don't think I am going to fiddle with the hammer spring as I've already got too much money into this but may change my mind if enough people tell me they have had success with this approach.

Many thanks to all who had suggestions and thanks to those who had similar problems--its nice to know I'm not alone with this.

Larry

 

[jsbethel]

We did discuss changing the hammer spring (not recoil spring).

Not knowing the exact age of your pistol or round count, that recoil spring may have been compressed in the pistol for up to 27 years. PM your address and I will send you a new one just to take that out of the accuracy equation!

 

[lhump1961]

For me it was just insuring I am actuating the trigger straight back. It's so easy to move your trigger finger to the left thus pushing the shot low and left. I was once told "It doesn't matter if you pull the trigger, squeeze the trigger, jerk the trigger, yank the trigger, press the trigger or whatever...just don't move the gun when you do it!"

When dry firing I watched the front sight and found out for me how to hold and fire it so it didn't move. If I do my part it hits POA. I shoot all my 3rd gens well now and can transition between them and striker fired without issue.

 

[daddio202]

I think it may be the gun just does not fit you, as others have said. I was looking to buy a browning hi-power, so I rented it to use in the range one day. I kept missing the target completely. Then i started hitting the edge down and to the left( just like you). I realized that gun and me just didn't mix.

 

[scooter123]

Just a few thoughts. Your comment about the heavy trigger and shooting a model 60 has me wondering if you are shooting your model 60 exclusively in Single Action. If this is the case set a new rule for yourself with any revolver, that is NO SINGLE ACTION SHOOTING AT LESS THAN 15 YARDS Because training with a revolver in double action is the surest method I have ever found for improving and refining trigger skills.

Second, some 9mm semi autos are more sensitive to bullet weight than others. My carry pistol is a Ruger LC9S Pro and with 115 grain ammunition and with a Combat Hold it shoots about 2 inches low at 10 yards. Change to 124 grain ammo and it shoots about an inch low. Then load it with 147 grain ammo and it is dead on perfect with a Combat Sight Picture (the bullet shoots to the dot in the front sight). If I get out my 9mm Ruger SR1911 the deviation between bullet weights is about half what I get with the smaller pistol. Note, until I built up enough once fired cases for 9mm I was shooting the LC9S exclusively with 115 grain Remington UMC and I was half convinced that my shooting low with this pistol had to be because I was flinching. It wasn't until I actually started loading my own ammo before I became convinced the pistol had the sights regulated for 147 grain bullets.

BTW, if you are interested in a spectacular pistol for Pocket Carry treat yourself to an LC9S. The trigger is the finest striker trigger I have ever shot and it has a very short pre-travel, very clean break, and a weight of 4.5 lbs. on the dot. recoil can be a bit snappy, especially with 115 grain loads but it's not the least bit painful and 147 grain loads will have you thinking you are shooting a much heavier pistol. Finally with well over 1800 rounds downrange I have yet to have one single failure of any description. BTW, that includes the Federal HST I carry.

Concerning your windage issue I would suggest that you do some very careful sighted shooting from a sandbag rest. Because before you drift your rear sight you really want to be certain that your not shooting left due to a flaw in your technique.

BTW, I have been shooting for enough years to have experienced nearly every possible fault in technique and what helped me the most was practicing and mastering shooting a revolver in Double Action. I will also note that I have a 6 inch Dan Wesson 15-2 that has a DA trigger weight of about 13 lbs. and I even practice with this revolver in double action, sometimes even out to 50 yards off a rest.

 

[Big Shrek]

There are some really easy, simple things you can do
all by yourself to improve that trigger WITHOUT getting
in over your head.

1. Take the assembly apart, just as in the Utube Vid.

2. Simply clean and inspect every piece, individually.

3. Rub a piece of cotton over the mating surfaces...
if hairs pull out, you have machining burrs.

4. Use a piece of 600-grit to CAREFULLY sand them smooth.
Take care to use a BLOCK and DON'T CHANGE ANY ANGLES.
You are just cleaning up a mess, not creating a new one

5. Pay attention to the sides of the parts where they attach
internally, smooth as needed, again, no angle changing.
(see those pin holes? should be baby butt smooth around them)
Replace any rusty pins if you can't clean them up nice.
It is AMAZING how many 20+yr old guns are filled with rusty pins.

6. Lube lightly, Reassemble and poundage test.

7. Notate the results. Lighter pull? Feel better?
If you like the new feel, STOP THERE.

Also known as a light Fluff & Buff

If it's not quite enough, the next stage is to disassemble,
then lightly polish the mating surfaces. Simply Polish a little.
Again, no angle-changing or heavy grinding. Just Polishing.
NO DREMELS, NO POWERBALLS. Light Hand Polishing.
Lube, Reassemble, Test.

Copious amount of Utube vids on this...if needed.

Just remember one thing.
NO POWER TOOLS OF ANY KIND.
Unless you wanna make your gunsmith rich

 

[flagman1776]

My suggestion is shoot the gun off a bench rest with various types of ammo, all single action. This will gve you a good idea of the intrinsic accuracy of the gun & ammo selection.
Then try various grip stles 2 hand, making one change at a time... the scientic method we were taught in school... record all your results.
Have your instructor watch your grip. It may just be that the gun doesn't like your grip.

 

[lwestatbus]

My suggestion is shoot the gun off a bench rest with various types of ammo, all single action. This will gve you a good idea of the intrinsic accuracy of the gun & ammo selection.
Then try various grip stles 2 hand, making one change at a time... the scientic method we were taught in school... record all your results.
Have your instructor watch your grip. It may just be that the gun doesn't like your grip.

Thanks, Flag. I've actually done this. Before the sight change all three bullet weights were hitting at POA at 20 ft. I haven't tried the different bullet weights after the sight change but when shooting 115 from a rest at 20 ft I am vertically on POA and 1-2" to the left. I'll deal with that issue after confirming it with another range session.

 

[lwestatbus]

For me it was just insuring I am actuating the trigger straight back. It's so easy to move your trigger finger to the left thus pushing the shot low and left. I was once told "It doesn't matter if you pull the trigger, squeeze the trigger, jerk the trigger, yank the trigger, press the trigger or whatever...just don't move the gun when you do it!"

When dry firing I watched the front sight and found out for me how to hold and fire it so it didn't move. If I do my part it hits POA. I shoot all my 3rd gens well now and can transition between them and striker fired without issue.

This is definitely going to be the focus of my next session with this pistol. My first issue pistol in the Army was a 1911 that was significantly older than I was and that rattled when you shook it. But I took only head shots on the silhouette targets by just using both eyes open and looking down the sides of the slide. In my next session I was going to throw away the book on target shooting and focus on mastering the trigger in just the way you have suggested and focus on overcoming the downward POI drift.

 

[email4eric]

I share your difficulty with the 3913 in the ways that you have though I have not pursued resolve to the extent you have. I have changed out the grip to the Hogue grips but have not enjoyed any resolve.

I shoot 124 gr in this pistol and my groups are insufferably low and left.

I do think a trigger job would help though I now subscribe to the "not every pistol works for everyone" school. I'm keeping the 3913 because it's a classic and it's cool to me.

The last thing that I can offer in terms of information is that I mainly shoot Sigs (P229 Extreme, P229 SAS, M11 A-1, and P239) and I'm dead on with those leaving me to think that it's the pistol more than the shooter.

I may try 147 gr in the 3913 to experiment.

 

[18DAI]

I read through the thread, but didnt see where the OP tried 147 grain rounds. All my 39XX series pistols like 147 grain best and shoot the tightest groups to POA with it.

Hogue grips generally improve control of a 39XX gun too.

Im inclined to go with those who say that some folks are just not compatible with certain guns. Like me and the Glock 36. I want to like it but it just doesnt work, for me.

OP before I dumped that 3913, I would dry fire it 2 or 300 times and try some 147 grain rounds, if you havent already. Good luck! Regards 18DAI

 

[GaryS]

He mentioned in a post that he tried all three common weight rounds. I'd guess that 147 was one of them.

I've found that putting a grip sleeve over the Delrin grips improves my hold and comfort level. The stock grips always feel, for lack of a better word, "loose" in my hands.

Or it might just be that the 3913 is not for him and it's time to move on. I found the same with the M&P9c I had for a while.

I read through the thread, but didnt see where the OP tried 147 grain rounds. All my 39XX series pistols like 147 grain best and shoot the tightest groups to POA with it.

Hogue grips generally improve control of a 39XX gun too.

Im inclined to go with those who say that some folks are just not compatible with certain guns. Like me and the Glock 36. I want to like it but it just doesnt work, for me.

OP before I dumped that 3913, I would dry fire it 2 or 300 times and try some 147 grain rounds, if you havent already. Good luck! Regards 18DAI

 

[WisconsinKen]

As many have mentioned, there are just some guns that don't fit a specific shooter. I have had some. Just had an experience with a Sig 320C. Me + that gun = crappy performance.
As an example where I did adapt is my Chiappa Rhino. I bought one because I love the engineering principle and like different stuff. First trip to the range was not so pretty. Did some research on grip style and the next trips were all where they should be.
I am more of a shooter than a collector so I would post that 3913 here on the forum. Reason being the guys know what each item you did to that gun costs and you did all the recommended things. So, you'll get credit from these guys. Post it on Armslist or GB and nodoby'll give you anything more than a plain jane 3913.
Just my 2 cents. Good luck.

 

[lwestatbus]

I read through the thread, but didnt see where the OP tried 147 grain rounds. All my 39XX series pistols like 147 grain best and shoot the tightest groups to POA with it.

Yep, did try 115, 124, & 147 grain rounds. When shooting from a rest there was no discernible difference in POI between them and all three were shooting at POA.

 

[lwestatbus]

I share your difficulty with the 3913 in the ways that you have though I have not pursued resolve to the extent you have. I have changed out the grip to the Hogue grips but have not enjoyed any resolve.

I shoot 124 gr in this pistol and my groups are insufferably low and left.

I do think a trigger job would help though I now subscribe to the "not every pistol works for everyone" school. I'm keeping the 3913 because it's a classic and it's cool to me.

The last thing that I can offer in terms of information is that I mainly shoot Sigs (P229 Extreme, P229 SAS, M11 A-1, and P239) and I'm dead on with those leaving me to think that it's the pistol more than the shooter.

I may try 147 gr in the 3913 to experiment.

Seems like we have quite a bit in common. Thanks for the comments.

 

[lwestatbus]

Ordered New Hammer Springs

I'd said I wasn't going to put any more into this pistol but...

In a previous post I relayed that the gunsmith I'd consulted discussed trimming coils from the hammer spring to reduce pull weight. I started researching this approach and found that Wolff Gunsprings actually makes replacement springs in different weights and sells a pack of three springs in different weights.

Wolff's site says that the factory original springs are designed to be 20 lbs (this isn't the trigger pull weight) and the pack includes springs for 17, 18, & 19 lbs. The spring pack was only $9.00 (shipping was almost as much) so I'm willing to give these a try.

You can see Wolff Gunsprings S&W Numbered Series Pistols. Wolff seems to offer a pretty comprehensive set of springs for a number of handguns.

 

[Zoner]

What are you using for ammunition? I had the exact same problem with my pre rail 3913TSW and my 3953. I was using 115gr rounds at the time. I found that moving to 124gr improved both issues greatly (I still pull a bit to the left, but that's me). It's even less of an issue with 147gr.

Here is an picture of my target with my new pre rail 3953TSW.

As you can see, I still do pull a bit to my right, but not as much as I used to.

This is an earlier target with my pre rail 3913TSW with 115gr rounds.

I can't comment on the "heavy" feeling of the trigger, all of my 3913s have a good trigger pull. The DAO are a bit heavier, but once you get used to that, it's not bad. Actually similar to a DA trigger on a K frame. Which I think was the goal there.

Like you, I was incredibly frustrated until I has an "AH HAH" moment with regard to the ammunition.

this chart cut up like a pie pertains to right handed shooting with a double action revolver. Notice that there is no info on that chart regarding the weak, support hand. The info there may not help you with a two hand hold.

 

[lhump1961]

One other thing I'll say about shooting pistols and the advice given is that what works for one is great but might not work for another...too many variables. Having small hands I can't replicate what someone with larger hands does, I have to grip it to suit my hands. There are fundamentals that shouldn't be ignored but a lot of it is personal preference.

For example some will say that you should use just the tip or first pad on your trigger finger and not the second knuckle. Most of us have watched Hickok45 and wish we could shoot like he does yet he sinks his finger deep into the trigger guard!

I know the OP will figure out what he need to do with the 3913 to get the desired result. I would also be willing to wager that whatever that is can be used successfully on most all other guns and perhaps improve things overall. When I start to struggle a bit I revert back to my revolvers in DA to shore up my trigger finger...revolvers in DA demand good technique and keep me from getting too loose.

I look forward to future range reports.