Do you train for hand-to-hand?

I am 67 myself. The only kind of physical fight I will have at this age will
be a gunfight. As for an assailant being unarmed, we do not have to suffer knockouts,
be mugged, be attacked by young thugs, before we draw, in order to use deadly force
in Texas. I won't start a confrontation but if I cannot retreat for one or avoid it. Many
folks have been beaten to death by young thugs who are unarmed. I do not intend to
be a victim just because a thug is unarmed, and I am old. I had such training in the Marine Corps
but at my age, I will rely upon my handguns, and avoid places where I am compelled to go unarmed.

^^^ This. I'm 75 yo and have a heart condition. I never leave the house without a pistol and a spare mag. The only requirement in TX is that we are in fear of our life. I avoid "iffy" places and situations, but if someone (or several someones) decide the old white-haired guy is gonna be an easy victim, I'll draw and fire without hesitation.
 
Having just completed my annual "street quals", including weapon retention, restraints and hand to hand skills, I repeat the words of my instructor/certifier. "The only rule in hand to hand is to win. The best way to win is to create space and go for spray, batton or taser to overcome whatever force is being used against you, but if he grabs for your Glock then he means to kill you so all bets are off".

Legally in this country there is a defence of self defence but there is no right for civilians to carry spray, batons, knives or firearms to exercise that right. Where there is such a right to carry I would counsel: A) As well as a carrying a lethal force option also carry at least one less than lethal force option. Do not fall into the trap of "it's shoot him or nothing", and B) The best and most carried but least used option is situational awareness.

Incidentally, here is a paradox. As a NZ cop I can use my Asp baton when an offender is only actively resisting, provided my use of force is proportional. But I can only deploy a taser when his behaviour is asssultative. That means I can deploy an appointment capable of being lethal (blunt force trauma) at a lower threshold that I can deploy a non-lethal option but only if I use it appropriately.
 
At 57 years old, I worry more about fitness, rather than hand-to-hand combat. I will make every effort to avoid it.

I try to run at least 15 miles per week. I don't need my heart to give out, just when I need to take care of business. That means trying to outrun/outlast an attacker. If it's in my home, my firearm will be my first choice.
 
Why do you assume he's going to avoid.

I get it as "shots rang out"..

I don't understand your post.

He said he's too old to engage in H2H and that's why he carries a gun.

My question to him was regarding how he expects to avoid H2H since I don't think it can be in many scenarios.
 
Looks like I am the really old guy on the block. I am 75 and gratefully in good health except for both rotator cuffs being damaged and arthritis of the hands.

I do not train in H2H fighting I just practice six essential moves that would be best used in a close quarter fight like a mugging or knife attack. The moves work well against an arm driven attack with a knife, club, or fist/hand. While I once was trained to do much more, I selected simple to do basics for a physical encounter.

A few months back I wrote them out in a post I made to this forum. I will see if I. An find it and link to it.

Responding to my own post above promising information. Rather than link to it I copied and pasted it. Here it is.

Let me start by saying that there are already good books and videos about hand to hand defense. Look for Krav Maga an Israeli system it MARMAP, Marine Martial Arts Program. I think there are even YouTube videos on both, and there might be phone/tablet app for them too.

Here is what I learned, when and where.

Defending against a knife attack

In 1960 in Marine Corps Infantry Training Regiment (ITR) now called called School of infantry. It was an 8 week course that you did after 12 weeks of boot camp. In boot camp we learned the fundamentals of hand to hand combat. In ITR It was not uncommon to practice those skills ten to twelve hours a week so at minimum you had 80 hours of training and practice. Part of that training was fending off a knife attack. When you were assigned to an infantry battalion that practice continued several days a week for several hours. You learned by rote.

Here is what we were taught. For the purposes of this description I am assuming a right hand attack from the front. If the attack comes from the side you have to pivot to face it. If the attack comes from the rear, say your prayers. Of course the fundamental rule is never let an attacker get behind you.

Keep in mind that these five steps have to be done in rapid succession.

Step one: face attacker head on with feet shoulder width apart. The stance is important. Keep you eyes shifting between the knife and attacker's eyes. Frequently the eyes will telegraph where the knife will be aimed.

Step two: using the left arm block the attacker's arm by placing your arm against his near the wrist. You should use that part of the upper side of your arm a bit below the wrist. That way you can keep maneuvering your arm along his as he tries to pull away or otherwise maneuver. Never grab the wrist at this point of an encounter. If you miss you could end up dead. The idea is to keep the knife away from you not to take it until later.

Step three: this is critical to get right. Staying in stance mentioned in step one, as you block with your left arm with you right arm make a strong fisted jab at the attacker' nose. You are not going for a knockout punch. You want to keep him off balance. Follow that with a heel of the palm of your hand upward under his chin. Use all the strength you can muster. That violently snaps the head back and causes a serious jolt to the brain stem/ spine junction. Done hard enough it can knock a person unconscious or kill him.

Step four: as soon as you have delivered the palm thrust, pivot on your left foot placing your right foot directly under his arm. This puts you at an angle to the attacker. While blocking his arm with your arm smash your right elbow into his face.

Step five: bring your right arm at your elbow over the attacker's arm at his elbow. Pull up on his elbow and push down on his wrist until you hear a crack. That is his elbow being dislocated. His arm is now practically useless to him. If he does not drop the knife grip his hand with your two hands and twist the wrist so the palm is going upward facing the sky. Continue to twist the wrist until he drops the knife of you break his wrist. At which point if he fails to drop the knife just take it from him. It's safe to do that because you have really destroyed his ability to use the knife.

All five steps should take no more than three to four seconds. That takes a lot of practice, but it is quite possible to master. If the knife attack is from the left side then you have to do the same thing to that side.

So in summary it is block, punch, thrust, lock arm, break wrist, disarm. I can assure you it works. I had to do it once in Nam, and I was really glad I did not have to go through that twice.

Forgot one thing. Never rush the attacker make him come at you. People in motion has less balance than those who are stationery.
 
I don't understand your post.

He said he's too old to engage in H2H and that's why he carries a gun.

My question to him was regarding how he expects to avoid H2H since I don't think it can be in many scenarios.

If that was the question, you didn't ask it.

He plans on using a gun not hands. Hence my response.
 
If that was the question, you didn't ask it.c

He plans on using a gun not hands. Hence my response.

The whole thread is about H2H. I thought my question was clear. If not, it is now.

A lot of folks here believe they can rely completely on a gun and situational awareness. I think that is short-sighted and unrealistic.
 
My opinion, for what it's worth...

I'm inclined to agree with Mister X on this one. There are certainly scenarios where one would have to use empty hand skills to create enough of a space and/or time gap in order to draw and fire a gun if necessary. Also, not all attacks might require a deadly force response. Of course, someone with physical limitations may be able to resort to deadly force in situations where it wouldn't be justified for a more able-bodied person due to disparity of force, but as a practical matter I think it would still be a good idea to have at least a basic set of empty hand techniques, even if it's just pushing an attacker away or a palm-heel strike. Maybe I'm outside my lane, but I have difficulty visualizing someone who is physically capable of firing a gun to defend oneself but lacks the ability to execute simple empty hand techniques (I'm not talking about uber-deadly Navy SEAL/Delta Force commando techniques or Chuck Norris-style flying roundhouse kicks).

Extensive martial arts training isn't necessary, and honestly may even be counterproductive depending on the circumstances. If you're studying a system with hundreds of possible techniques, such as aikido, will you be able to properly apply them under stress? On the other hand, a system that has simple, realistic techniques, like Krav Maga, might be a better choice. (As a side note, I always thought it would be interesting to get some training in WWII/OSS-style hand-to-hand techniques that were meant to get operatives to a functional level of skill quickly.)

I would be surprised if a good quality school that emphasizes self defense, such as one teaching Krav Maga, couldn't work with a student to help him/her deal with whatever physical limitations they may have. I have heard of students in wheelchairs or with amputations getting such training and having their needs accommodated. I would also be surprised if there weren't at least a few YouTube videos showing such techniques for those who, for whatever reason, can't or won't go to a self defense school.

I'm certainly no martial artist. I've dabbled in a few different martial arts, but I always keep coming back to a few basic techniques that are simple to apply and can create enough space and/or time to either draw my gun or run away screaming like a little girl ( ;) ), whichever the situation requires.

Again, just my opinion.
 
True story:

US Army Basic Training, 1968. Bayonet instruction under the tutelage of a Guamanian Sergeant First Class who, with absolutely no inflection or punctuation in his presentation, instructed us as follows:

Gentlemens with the bayonet you always go for the soft fleshy parts of the body You never want to get your bayonet stuck in the bony parts like the ribs If you ever get your bayonet blade lodged in the bony parts of the body you do not make like John Wayne and put your foot on the man's chest to pull out your bayonet You just fire one round from your rifle and the recoil will free the blade of your bayonet Any questions gentlemens.

I had to be the one to ask: If there is one round left in my rifle what the heck am I doing in a bayonet fight?

That cost me about a hundred push-ups, and I never got an answer to, what remains in my mind, a very valid question.

Judo, jiu-jitsu, karate, aikido, ken-po, boxing, and other sporting exercises are all well and good for younger folks in top physical condition willing to commit themselves to a regimen of training and exercise in order to show the rest of us how it should be done. I am not a young man in prime condition, I am a great-grandfather with two bum knees, a hernia, a problem shoulder, COPD, compression fracture of the lumbar spine, and a few other issues (some related to multiple Purple Heart medals over 40 years ago). I do my absolute best to avoid any type of physical conflict. I may not be able to run away as well as I might have done years ago, so I have to concentrate on what I am capable of, such as gouging out an eye, twisting a gonad sack until the design specifications have been exceeded, kicking a knee in a direction it wasn't designed to go, or such other expedients as the situation may allow (assuming that I am not able to escape any other way). A stout walking stick has come in handy on occasion, with both man and beast.

Fortunately, I have not had to resort to such awful behavior for a long time, and I haven't had to shoot anyone for weeks and weeks. Trying my best to keep things that way.
 
In my 30 years on the street I was involved in many scrapes making arrests but always managed to come out on top, but that was 20 years ago. I'll be 71 soon and walk w/a cane so I cannot run and getting into a fistfight is unrealistic, I'll lose quickly and probably be badly hurt. My gun is an absolute last resort, as it should be, and I'll rely on my situational awareness to keep me safe.
 
at 72 years, i have no intention of going "hand to hand"...however, if i am attacked, i have no hesitation of pulling the trigger and taking you out.....

If you were the target of a sucker punch in someone's "knock out game", would you not try to evade or parry the blow rather than just receive it and immediately go for the gun?


Unarmed transitional skills to access the weapon would still be considered H2H.

...
 
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Hopefully we're not going to get caught up debating the precise definition of a sucker punch.

A sudden unexpected strike with the intent being to catch you off guard is simply what I'm referencing. Obviously if you never see it, you can't defend against it.
 
Hopefully we're not going to get caught up debating the precise definition of a sucker punch.

A sudden unexpected strike with the intent being to catch you off guard is simply what I'm referencing. Obviously if you never see it, you can't defend against it.

Correct! I wrote earlier but being aware of where you are, who is around will go a long way to keep you out of trouble. Talking your way out might be a option depending on circumstances.

Staying out of bad areas also goes a long way, but sometimes you just have to be where you are. Heck even good areas if you watch the news after something nasty happens they always interview some neighbor that says, things like that never happen in this neighborhood.
 
Correct! I wrote earlier but being aware of where you are, who is around will go a long way to keep you out of trouble. Talking your way out might be a option depending on circumstances.

Staying out of bad areas also goes a long way, but sometimes you just have to be where you are. Heck even good areas if you watch the news after something nasty happens they always interview some neighbor that says, things like that never happen in this neighborhood.

I agree. The problem is so many people are speaking in absolutes and the reality is no one can be aware and alert to every potential threat every waking moment of their life. Nobody. No one is perfect in this regard. Look at how famed Chris Kyle lost his life.

Situational awareness, understanding pre-attack indicators and avoiding high risk areas and situations do go a long way in avoidance and preparation... Do you carry religiously? You may not be as safe as you believe. - www.GrantCunningham.com www.GrantCunningham.com

However, it's not always enough... The Myth of Situational Awareness

People often speak of being alert of ones environment, but how many actually know what to look for? nosofttargets.com

Unless you never go out in public, you will be in very close proximity to multiple people on a regular basis and someone intending to do you harm will try to give as little indication as they can of their intent and they are often very good and experienced at doing so. Irregardless of how soon you may pick up on it, an unarmed defensive response will very often be necessary to avoid or at least mitigate the damage done by the initial strikes to even get to the gun. You simply may not see the assault coming from a distance or have adequate time to access your weapon before the attack comes.

Effective(unarmed)counter-ambush methods is the key to many of these defense scenarios, but they are completely overlooked by many gun centric individuals who think they are safe just because they carry a gun.
 
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