19-3 is toast?

[GraMott]

I have a 19-3 that went back to Smith two years ago for some sight work and I had them replace/fit a buggered yoke screw. I have had little occasion to shoot the gun since then, but when I did, I noticed that the cylinder must be pulled rearward (towards hammer) to be opened. This is true with the revolver positioned in all six cylinders. I don't remember this issue existing before the visit to Smith, but that's neither here nor there.

I have read and performed the tests and remedies posted on some forum (maybe this one). The ejector rod is screwed in tightly. The bolt is flush with the recoil shield; it is not obstructed from full forward movement (compared to other Smiths that I have and are in good working order). The center pin sits proud of the ejector rod when the center pin is pushed from the rear to be flush with the cylinder rear. I can remove material from the ejector rod to make the center pin even more proud, but before doing that, I want to make sure everything else is in order.

I just measured the gun's end shake at .010. I passed a .018 feeler gauge with the cylinder held to the rear, and a .008 with the cylinder pressed forward. These measurements are all obviously excessive. I tested the 19-3 for yoke shake, and I was unable to get a shim in between the frame and the yoke, so I think its minimal. I measured two other Smith revolvers of mine for end shake (including a very sparsely shot 29-10 which was purchased new) and got end shake numbers of .005. So maybe I am doing something wrong. With the 29-10, I got a rear reading of .006 and was basically unable to pass any feeler gauge with the cylinder pressed forward, though light is visible through the gap.

Anyway, this leads to some questions:

1. Can excessive end shake, BC gap, etc. cause the cylinder opening problems I have described? It seems to me that if there is that much slop in the cylinder, then the center pin may not be be able to fully depress on the locking bolt to free the cylinder.

2. What's the procedure for fixing the end shake problem? I can shim the end shake out, but then I have a BC gap of 0.014+ and I have to have the barrel set back?

3. Is it worth it? I feel like I am only trying to fix this thing so that I can sell it with a clean conscience. I don't want to pass these issues on to an unsuspecting buyer, but I really don't want to sell this thing as parts. In this moment, I'd like to just wash my hands of it.

I appreciate any input. I am happy to provide photos or additional measurements if you think that would help.

Thank you.

Edit: Editing to say that I have just ordered end shake bearings, since it seems that I need them even in my 29-10. Regardless of whether the end shake is causing cylinder opening issues in the 19-3, I ought to take care of the end shake. Tackle one issue at a time and then move on to the next one.

 

[armorer951]

Yes, you're correct. End shake can cause the opening/closing issues you're experiencing. Excessive end shake causes the cylinder assembly to move progressively forward on the yoke. This movement forward will eventually cause the end of the extractor rod to bind on the front locking bolt, which, in turn, contributes to the "rough" opening problem you're having. Other issues can cause binding, but this is the most likely culprit.

In terms of the end shake bearings, I would try a .004" bearing initially to see of that will help the issue regarding rough opening. With .010" of end shake, I'm surprised you're not already having reliability issues in terms of primer ignition. Your rear gauge or headspace should measure .012" - .018" with the cylinder at rest. (not pulled rearward)
If the .004" bearing installation rectifies the cylinder opening issue, the end result will be an approximate .012" of front gauge or barrel cylinder gap, which is the current factory maximum, depending on who you talk to.

I see no reason why the gun couldn't be sold, as long as these inevitable "wear and tear" issues were disclosed to a potential buyer prior to sale.


Carter

 

[stansdds]

End shake of 0.010" is well beyond maximum acceptable. End shake is most often caused by the cylinder pounding against the cylinder yoke, slowly shortening the yoke. In rarer cases, extensive shooting of hotly loaded ammo can cause the frame to stretch a little. With that much end shake and such a wide barrel-cylinder gap, I'd be more inclined to have S&W or at least a qualified gunsmith thoroughly examine the revolver and repair it properly.

 

[GraMott]

End shake of 0.010" is well beyond maximum acceptable. End shake is most often caused by the cylinder pounding against the cylinder yoke, slowly shortening the yoke. In rarer cases, extensive shooting of hotly loaded ammo can cause the frame to stretch a little. With that much end shake and such a wide barrel-cylinder gap, I'd be more inclined to have S&W or at least a qualified gunsmith thoroughly examine the revolver and repair it properly.

When I sent the revolver in to Smith for a new front sight and new yoke screw, I requested that they examine the gun and relay any information to me so that I could approve repairs. It seems that note was ignored.

 

[GraMott]

Yes, you're correct. End shake can cause the opening/closing issues you're experiencing. Excessive end shake causes the cylinder assembly to move progressively forward on the yoke. This movement forward will eventually cause the end of the extractor rod to bind on the front locking bolt, which, in turn, contributes to the "rough" opening problem you're having. Other issues can cause binding, but this is the most likely culprit.

In terms of the end shake bearings, I would try a .004" bearing initially to see of that will help the issue regarding rough opening. With .010" of end shake, I'm surprised you're not already having reliability issues in terms of primer ignition. Your rear gauge or headspace should measure .012" - .018" with the cylinder at rest. (not pulled rearward)
If the .004" bearing installation rectifies the cylinder opening issue, the end result will be an approximate .012" of front gauge or barrel cylinder gap, which is the current factory maximum, depending on who you talk to.

I see no reason why the gun couldn't be sold, as long as these inevitable "wear and tear" issues were disclosed to a potential buyer prior to sale.


Carter

Thank you very much for the assistance. I will try the bearings once they arrive and see if that solves the cylinder issue.

Interestingly, I have never noticed an ignition issue with this revolver.

Regarding selling the revolver, if I go the GunBroker route I can list the measurements in the description and then the seller is made aware of the issues. I'd probably do better listing it here, but I don't think I will have access to the classifieds with my current posting frequency.

When the bearings arrive I will install them and update here.

Thanks again.

One more thing, isn't BC gap measured with the cylinder pulled rearward? So aren't I already at .018 and into excessive territory by any standard?

 

[armorer951]

The existing barrel cylinder gap (front gauge) and the headspace (rear gauge) are measured with the cylinder closed and "at rest"....or forward.

You correctly determined the "end shake" in the assembly by measuring the front b/c gap with the cylinder at rest (forward) and then measuring the gap again with the cylinder pulled to the rear. The difference or "movement" of the cylinder assembly front to back on the yoke while it is closed is the "end shake" on the cylinder.

End shake in the cylinder assembly is not a horrible demon as some imagine, but is "built in" during assembly, and is necessary for proper function. In most cases, and if the other measurements on the cylinder are correct and in spec, end shake shouldn't exceed .002" - .003". Normal end shake specs provide clearance for the assembly components to rotate, for the cylinder to open and close, and space for lubricants and shooting debris.

I may be wrong, but I think as long as you are a member in good standing here on the forum you can utilize the classifieds.



Carter

 

[toad67]

IIRC, Carter, a member has to have 25 posts before they can post in the classifieds. However, I read thru the rules and it doesn't mention anything about that, at least not any more.