Safety or No Safety?

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The mistakes are made based on your training/lack of. That's what muscle memory is about. Also why it's important to have and practice with one gun and one style.

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There was a study done some years back. I can't find the link right now. They tested some swat officers (among the best trained) in simulations, and found that all of them put their fingers on the triggers at some point when they were not supposed to.

Training is important. But your position that all mistakes can be trained out of someone is simply a false (and dangerous) attitude. It is false because some set of mistakes are not due to a lack of training. People are never infallible, and it's dangerous to think that training leads to infallibility because it promotes a false sense of complacency.

Even the best trained surgeons make mistakes; the best trained athletes make mistakes. Assuming all the training in the world, it is not a matter of if one makes a mistake; it's a matter of when. When someone makes a mistake inspite of the best training, we want the most forgiving platform that could compensate for that mistake while still fulfilling the requisite role.
 
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Just so we are all talking about the same thing:
Condition 0 — Magazine inserted, round in the chamber, safety off.
For SA/DA — Hammer is back.
Condition 1 — Magazine inserted, round in the chamber, safety on.
For SA/DA — Hammer is back.
Condition 2 — Applies to Single-Action/Double-Action primarily. This is a magazine inserted, round in the chamber, hammer forward. For revolvers, it would be rounds inserted into cylinder, cylinder locked into place, hammer forward.
Condition 3 — Magazine inserted, no round in the chamber.
For SA/DA — Hammer is forward.
Condition 4 — No magazine inserted, no round in the chamber.
For SA/DA — Hammer is forward.
For SA/DA revolvers — Hammer is forward, cylinder is clear of all rounds.
Be Safe,
 
Same thread over and over and same responses. It is all about personal preference. But there is one absolute fact: a manual safety makes a negligent discharge less likely. It doesn't remove the possibility. It just means they are less likely to happen if you have and use a manual safety.

Before Glock came along, MILLIONS of people owned and carried semi auto pistols with safeties, and they had been doing that for decades. Somehow, they all survived. Then Glock came along and convinced a whole new generation of shooters that safeties were not only unnecessary, but they were a liability.

We all handle a weapon daily. Sometimes multiple times throughout the day. How many of us here have actually drawn and fired a weapon in self defense? The odds of us using a weapon in self defense are extremely unlikely. Show me a case where somebody got hurt or killed because of a safety. I'll show you 20 where the lack of one got somebody hurt or killed.
 
Same thread over and over and same responses. It is all about personal preference. But there is one absolute fact: a manual safety makes a negligent discharge less likely. It doesn't remove the possibility. It just means they are less likely to happen if you have and use a manual safety.

Before Glock came along, MILLIONS of people owned and carried semi auto pistols with safeties, and they had been doing that for decades. Somehow, they all survived. Then Glock came along and convinced a whole new generation of shooters that safeties were not only unnecessary, but they were a liability.

We all handle a weapon daily. Sometimes multiple times throughout the day. How many of us here have actually drawn and fired a weapon in self defense? The odds of us using a weapon in self defense are extremely unlikely. Show me a case where somebody got hurt or killed because of a safety. I'll show you 20 where the lack of one got somebody hurt or killed.

Safeties like on Beretta or a 5906 aren't necessary. They can be used or left alone. Really no different. Sig doesn't have a safety.....for instance. When I owned 3rd gens I never used the safeties and it didn't effect anything. It was an unnecessary part that didn't get in the way. They didn't have to convince anyone of anything. Safeties, for the most part, are a leftover from when guns couldn't be carried safely with a loaded chamber. And that design is nothing new. To me it has nothing to do with Glock. It's simply something that isn't needed since safeties are to prevent AD/ND. Like the lock on the revolver, it adds extra parts that can go wrong. If my gun is coming out of the holster then the safety is going off so either way there's no safety in use.

I can also show you 20 where a safety didn't help and 20 who don't even chamber a round because...."The odds of us using a weapon in self defense are extremely unlikely"



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There was a study done some years back. I can't find the link right now. They tested some swat officers (among the best trained) in simulations, and found that all of them put their fingers on the triggers at some point when they were not supposed to.

Training is important. But your position that all mistakes can be trained out of someone is simply a false (and dangerous) attitude. It is false because some set of mistakes are not due to a lack of training. People are never infallible, and it's dangerous to think that training leads to infallibility because it promotes a false sense of complacency.

Even the best trained surgeons make mistakes; the best trained athletes make mistakes. Assuming all the training in the world, it is not a matter of if one makes a mistake; it's a matter of when. When someone makes a mistake inspite of the best training, we want the most forgiving platform that could compensate for that mistake while still fulfilling the requisite role.
Some of the best trained how? What department? What type of training? Just saying that doesn't make it so! Are they patrol officers who just get extra time to train? Are they training every day? How is it set up? Most departments SWAT are patrol officers who have mandatory training X times a month otherwise they are typical patrol officers who drive around. So how much better is that training? They can be the "best trained" but what are the parameters? What is "best" being compared to? I can say with 100% certainty that I'm the best trained out of all my gun friends but compared to some gun owners I haven't even reached mediocre level. So, are they practicing a couple hours a month? A couple hours a week? Day?

Now, having gone through the police academy back in the early 2000s I can say that looking back the training was abysmal. Spent a week at the range shooting a stationary target and we had to get a certain score. It was no different than you going to your local range today. For a beginner it seemed like a lot but in reality all we learned was to keep the bullets as close as possible on what we pointed at. The score was pass/fail....no in between BUUUT you start off at contact distance and go backwards after a certain amount of shots. If you could get your shots within the X area in the first 7 yards you would pass if the rest of your shots were fired wherever. So that's really not training. Most of my class was new to guns and everyone passed after only 5 afternoons at the range.

Saying you "WILL have it" is even more dangerous. That's what's called a self fulfilling prophecy. You're already subconsciously setting yourself up for it. Instead, you acknowledge that there is a possibility but train to overcome it as best you can.

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Some of the best trained how? What department? What type of training? Just saying that doesn't make it so! Are they patrol officers who just get extra time to train? Are they training every day? How is it set up? Most departments SWAT are patrol officers who have mandatory training X times a month otherwise they are typical patrol officers who drive around. So how much better is that training? They can be the "best trained" but what are the parameters? What is "best" being compared to? I can say with 100% certainty that I'm the best trained out of all my gun friends but compared to some gun owners I haven't even reached mediocre level. So, are they practicing a couple hours a month? A couple hours a week? Day?

Now, having gone through the police academy back in the early 2000s I can say that looking back the training was abysmal. Spent a week at the range shooting a stationary target and we had to get a certain score. It was no different than you going to your local range today. For a beginner it seemed like a lot but in reality all we learned was to keep the bullets as close as possible on what we pointed at. The score was pass/fail....no in between BUUUT you start off at contact distance and go backwards after a certain amount of shots. If you could get your shots within the X area in the first 7 yards you would pass if the rest of your shots were fired wherever. So that's really not training. Most of my class was new to guns and everyone passed after only 5 afternoons at the range.

Saying you "WILL have it" is even more dangerous. That's what's called a self fulfilling prophecy. You're already subconsciously setting yourself up for it. Instead, you acknowledge that there is a possibility but train to overcome it as best you can.

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Your position, as stated, was that mistakes happen due to training/lack of training; that all mistakes are due to training.
My position is:while many mistakes would have been avoided by better training, there exists a set of mistakes that are not due to training. Fatigue, stress, injury for example.

The best athlete in the world who makes a mistake on game day most likely didn't err due to a lack of training.
 
As was said earlier, there is no definitive answer to your question. It really boils down to personal preference. Anybody who gives you concrete advise on which is better is not the person to be listening to. Thats simply their opinion. Take all the facts and figure out what works best for your own situation and comfort level.
 
Your position, as stated, was that mistakes happen due to training/lack of training; that all mistakes are due to training.
My position is:while many mistakes would have been avoided by better training, there exists a set of mistakes that are not due to training. Fatigue, stress, injury for example.

The best athlete in the world who makes a mistake on game day most likely didn't err due to a lack of training.
Can't compare athletes to gun handling. Each throw, swing, run, jump are never the same and often the outcome is based on more than one person. The quarterback can screw up the trow which causes the running back to do something different. The quarterback's throw is in turn screwed up because of some one else...

When you practice with one gun it's always the same. Everything around you can change but you are the only one who's responsible from the time of the draw to holstering. There are no passes, no other people who will ultimately determine your outcome. Your speed is only as fast as you practice. Your finger will be where you practice to put it.

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Can't compare athletes to gun handling. Each throw, swing, run, jump are never the same and often the outcome is based on more than one person. The quarterback can screw up the trow which causes the running back to do something different. The quarterback's throw is in turn screwed up because of some one else...

When you practice with one gun it's always the same. Everything around you can change but you are the only one who's responsible from the time of the draw to holstering. There are no passes, no other people who will ultimately determine your outcome. Your speed is only as fast as you practice. Your finger will be where you practice to put it.

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Each draw of your handgun is never the exact same as others either, just like athletic movements. Therefore the analogy holds, and handgun draws are subject to the same non-training induced mistakes as athletic movements that you admitted occur in athletics. You're proving my point with your arguments.
 
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Real fights/self-defense encounters tend toward being chaotic and sloppy. This is true irregardless of the weapons(or none) used. Comparing what you see at the range with what we see in actual gunfights or gun vs knife/clubs/bare hands, reminds me of the differences we see when we compare what is practiced in many so-called "traditional" martial arts schools with the dynamics of actual fights. The traditional martial artist will often watch a real fight and scoff at the lack of technique and training of the participants. They did the same with NHB/UFC/MMA when it first came to the public attention and many still do. Yet they usually always refuse to demonstrate the effectiveness of their method when asked to do so. The problem is the hyper-structured and robotic training and techniques many traditional martial arts advocate is not based in reality nor usually all that effective in actual fights.

The same applies to those whose firearm training is limited to static range work. We simply do not see the controlled, robotic movements and picture perfect stances common in range work with any regularity in Force-on-Force training nor in video footage of actual defense scenarios involving gunfire. A lot of folks have trouble accepting that, but the truth is the truth even if it is dismissed and ignored. A lot of people want to look to what happens in Police work, but aside from a few exceptions, I think it has limited value to the armed civilian since it's a matter of reactive vs proactive, concealed vs open carry, avoid and escape vs intentionally engage. As an armed civilian, I have to assume any scenario I'm involved in will be reactive otherwise I would simply avoid it. I may have to engage at contact distances and be forced to incorporate empty hands skills while accessing or even while using my firearm. The safety would already be off at this point, so would be of no use. Anyone who has attended an ECQ class knows how chaotic these scenarios can get. And anyone who has participated in a lot of FoF also has seen people fail(not just forgetting)to get a manual safety disengaged during reactive scenarios.

I may have to move or flat out run with my weapon drawn, even doing so while trying to corral and direct my family to safety. Depending on the specific situation, my finger may or may not be on the trigger. If I'm investigating a bump in the night at home where I think someone could be lying in wait, my finger will indeed be on the trigger when I check it out. I could trip and fall in such a situation or it could quickly become a contact struggle. If I had a weapon with a safety, it would again be off and of no use. A heavier trigger pull may or may not prevent an unintentional discharge, but it definately would in many of them. In terms of some type of startle-flinch response, the available data says it still will prevent unintentional discharges in many cases. Force Science News #3: Can You Really Prevent Unintentional Discharges? plus I'm nowhere near convinced that some type of sympathetic reflexive hand clenching is necessarily a widespread hard-wired reflex. For me, no manual safety and a heavier trigger pull logically constitutes the best compromise between readiness and safety.
 
Each draw of your handgun is never the exact same as others either, just like athletic movements. Therefore the analogy holds, and handgun draws are subject to the same non-training induced mistakes as athletic movements of that you admitted occur in athletics. You're proving my point with your arguments.

But athletes are reliant on each other. You are only on you. A QB cannot block for himself, throw the ball, run to catch it. Each of those are done by someone else so it takes a GROUP to make a good play. And the best player is only as good as all of the others. Your draw will always be the same. Same enough that you won't notice the difference. Maybe today you were. 0.0001 of a second faster. Sure that may be different then yesterday but it's not enough to notice or make any difference. If your draw isn't the same it's because you keep changing things up. This is also why guys make reference points on guns....like memory pads. That way it's faster and easier to know where your hand/fingers are in relation to the gun/trigger. The reference point on my gun is the take down latch. It's right above the trigger. When I take the gun out my trigger finger is automatically on that reference point even when just unholstering. I have a similar point on the grip. I know exactly where my hand is. It's going to be in that spot all the every time.

When I switch guns I do see a difference. I find myself looking for that point. My hand remembers the overall feel of the grip so on a different gun I may be too low or grip is slightly off. Repetition and the borring same gun every day is what works

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But athletes are reliant on each other. You are only on you. A QB cannot block for himself, throw the ball, run to catch it. Each of those are done by someone else so it takes a GROUP to make a good play. And the best player is only as good as all of the others. Your draw will always be the same. Same enough that you won't notice the difference. Maybe today you were. 0.0001 of a second faster. Sure that may be different then yesterday but it's not enough to notice or make any difference. If your draw isn't the same it's because you keep changing things up. This is also why guys make reference points on guns....like memory pads. That way it's faster and easier to know where your hand/fingers are in relation to the gun/trigger. The reference point on my gun is the take down latch. It's right above the trigger. When I take the gun out my trigger finger is automatically on that reference point even when just unholstering. I have a similar point on the grip. I know exactly where my hand is. It's going to be in that spot all the every time.

When I switch guns I do see a difference. I find myself looking for that point. My hand remembers the overall feel of the grip so on a different gun I may be too low or grip is slightly off. Repetition and the borring same gun every day is what works

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Gymnasts and figure skaters do not rely on others for the success or failures of their execution of fine motor skills. All the training in the world will not prevent some mistakes. Fatigue, injury, stress, pain--- all non training related sources of mistakes. Same with the golf swing, same with hand gun presentations.
 
Gymnasts and figure skaters do not rely on others for the success or failures of their execution of fine motor skills. All the training in the world will not prevent some mistakes. Fatigue, injury, stress, pain--- all non training related sources of mistakes. Same with the golf swing, same with hand gun presentations.

Let's put it this way. Practice A LOT and come back to me in a year and explain how those two things are related.

Using the slide release vs the slingshot method is fine motor skills. Drawing up and pushing out while NOT putting your hand on the trigger is not

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It really boils down to what you personally are comfortable with and your level of respect and handling of any firearm.

I don't want a safety but if the weapon has it I don't engage it.
(my Shield 45 has a safety). My weapons stay holstered unless I am at the range or cleaning so I am comfortable carrying with a loaded chamber and safety off.

You need to decide what is your comfort level and go with that.
Either way is perfect if you are comfortable with it.
 
The more complex a system is the more likely it is to fail. If I'm ever required to use a handgun in self defense I want to remove as many opportunities for the system to fail as I can. No chambering a round. No disengaging a safety.

I started out carrying a 1911 then switched to TDAs then switched to striker fired. Each transition was intended to simplify the process. I carried TDAs for 15 years or so and keeping my finger off the trigger is as much a part of my make up as some have said sweeping the safety off on the draw is for them.
 
The more complex a system is the more likely it is to fail. If I'm ever required to use a handgun in self defense I want to remove as many opportunities for the system to fail as I can. No chambering a round. No disengaging a safety.

I started out carrying a 1911 then switched to TDAs then switched to striker fired. Each transition was intended to simplify the process. I carried TDAs for 15 years or so and keeping my finger off the trigger is as much a part of my make up as some have said sweeping the safety off on the draw is for them.

A manual safety doesn't add all that much to the process. How many of us here have to think about stepping on the brake before shifting into gear? How many of us drive a manual transmission, either a bike or a car? Do they have to think about shifting gears, or do they just do it? I barely remember driving my screaming in labor wife to the hospital. If I somehow managed to start the car and drive 40 mikes, shifting gears along the way. If that isn't stress, tell me what is. I thought I was gonna have to deliver my daughter on the side of the road.
 
A manual safety doesn't add all that much to the process. How many of us here have to think about stepping on the brake before shifting into gear? How many of us drive a manual transmission, either a bike or a car? Do they have to think about shifting gears, or do they just do it? I barely remember driving my screaming in labor wife to the hospital. If I somehow managed to start the car and drive 40 mikes, shifting gears along the way. If that isn't stress, tell me what is. I thought I was gonna have to deliver my daughter on the side of the road.

How big are brake pedals, gas pedals, clutch pedals, and gear shift handles compared to a thumb safety lever? How often do you operate the controls of a car? How often do you operate the controls of your gun? How many people have hit the gas instead of the brake under stress (or under no stress), even though they know how to drive and have been doing so for years?

I'm not saying nobody should ever use a manual safety-equipped pistol for self defense. With sufficient training I think they can be used effectively. History bears that out. But adding even a simple step can complicate things when the balloon goes up. Not acknowledging that is the problem.
 
How big are brake pedals, gas pedals, clutch pedals, and gear shift handles compared to a thumb safety lever? How often do you operate the controls of a car? How often do you operate the controls of your gun? How many people have hit the gas instead of the brake under stress (or under no stress), even though they know how to drive and have been doing so for years?

I'm not saying nobody should ever use a manual safety-equipped pistol for self defense. With sufficient training I think they can be used effectively. History bears that out. But adding even a simple step can complicate things when the balloon goes up. Not acknowledging that is the problem.

When the balloon goes up? How many times does that happen? You ever pull a weapon in self defense?

And taking away that simple step has spilled more blood than adding it. Or haven't you heard of Glock Leg?

And 5 minutes a day drawing and flicking safety off to build muscle memory isn't much of a burden
 
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A manual safety doesn't add all that much to the process. How many of us here have to think about stepping on the brake before shifting into gear? How many of us drive a manual transmission, either a bike or a car? Do they have to think about shifting gears, or do they just do it? I barely remember driving my screaming in labor wife to the hospital. If I somehow managed to start the car and drive 40 mikes, shifting gears along the way. If that isn't stress, tell me what is. I thought I was gonna have to deliver my daughter on the side of the road.

You may certainly carry any gun you chose in whatever manner you see fit

When the balloon goes up? How many times does that happen

An estimated 2.5 million times a year.

You ever pull a weapon in self defense?

Oddly enough, yes and it almost had a very (for me) negative ending because my gun was in an unready to fire condition.
 
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