Safety or No Safety?

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Real fights/self-defense encounters tend toward being chaotic and sloppy. This is true irregardless of the weapons(or none) used. Comparing what you see at the range with what we see in actual gunfights or gun vs knife/clubs/bare hands, reminds me of the differences we see when we compare what is practiced in many so-called "traditional" martial arts schools with the dynamics of actual fights. The traditional martial artist will often watch a real fight and scoff at the lack of technique and training of the participants. They did the same with NHB/UFC/MMA when it first came to the public attention and many still do. Yet they usually always refuse to demonstrate the effectiveness of their method when asked to do so. The problem is the hyper-structured and robotic training and techniques many traditional martial arts advocate is not based in reality nor usually all that effective in actual fights.

The same applies to those whose firearm training is limited to static range work. We simply do not see the controlled, robotic movements and picture perfect stances common in range work with any regularity in Force-on-Force training nor in video footage of actual defense scenarios involving gunfire. A lot of folks have trouble accepting that, but the truth is the truth even if it is dismissed and ignored. A lot of people want to look to what happens in Police work, but aside from a few exceptions, I think it has limited value to the armed civilian since it's a matter of reactive vs proactive, concealed vs open carry, avoid and escape vs intentionally engage. As an armed civilian, I have to assume any scenario I'm involved in will be reactive otherwise I would simply avoid it. I may have to engage at contact distances and be forced to incorporate empty hands skills while accessing or even while using my firearm. The safety would already be off at this point, so would be of no use. Anyone who has attended an ECQ class knows how chaotic these scenarios can get. And anyone who has participated in a lot of FoF also has seen people fail(not just forgetting)to get a manual safety disengaged during reactive scenarios.

I may have to move or flat out run with my weapon drawn, even doing so while trying to corral and direct my family to safety. Depending on the specific situation, my finger may or may not be on the trigger. If I'm investigating a bump in the night at home where I think someone could be lying in wait, my finger will indeed be on the trigger when I check it out. I could trip and fall in such a situation or it could quickly become a contact struggle. If I had a weapon with a safety, it would again be off and of no use. A heavier trigger pull may or may not prevent an unintentional discharge, but it definately would in many of them. In terms of some type of startle-flinch response, the available data says it still will prevent unintentional discharges in many cases. Force Science News #3: Can You Really Prevent Unintentional Discharges? plus I'm nowhere near convinced that some type of sympathetic reflexive hand clenching is necessarily a widespread hard-wired reflex. For me, no manual safety and a heavier trigger pull logically constitutes the best compromise between readiness and safety.
 
Each draw of your handgun is never the exact same as others either, just like athletic movements. Therefore the analogy holds, and handgun draws are subject to the same non-training induced mistakes as athletic movements of that you admitted occur in athletics. You're proving my point with your arguments.

But athletes are reliant on each other. You are only on you. A QB cannot block for himself, throw the ball, run to catch it. Each of those are done by someone else so it takes a GROUP to make a good play. And the best player is only as good as all of the others. Your draw will always be the same. Same enough that you won't notice the difference. Maybe today you were. 0.0001 of a second faster. Sure that may be different then yesterday but it's not enough to notice or make any difference. If your draw isn't the same it's because you keep changing things up. This is also why guys make reference points on guns....like memory pads. That way it's faster and easier to know where your hand/fingers are in relation to the gun/trigger. The reference point on my gun is the take down latch. It's right above the trigger. When I take the gun out my trigger finger is automatically on that reference point even when just unholstering. I have a similar point on the grip. I know exactly where my hand is. It's going to be in that spot all the every time.

When I switch guns I do see a difference. I find myself looking for that point. My hand remembers the overall feel of the grip so on a different gun I may be too low or grip is slightly off. Repetition and the borring same gun every day is what works

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But athletes are reliant on each other. You are only on you. A QB cannot block for himself, throw the ball, run to catch it. Each of those are done by someone else so it takes a GROUP to make a good play. And the best player is only as good as all of the others. Your draw will always be the same. Same enough that you won't notice the difference. Maybe today you were. 0.0001 of a second faster. Sure that may be different then yesterday but it's not enough to notice or make any difference. If your draw isn't the same it's because you keep changing things up. This is also why guys make reference points on guns....like memory pads. That way it's faster and easier to know where your hand/fingers are in relation to the gun/trigger. The reference point on my gun is the take down latch. It's right above the trigger. When I take the gun out my trigger finger is automatically on that reference point even when just unholstering. I have a similar point on the grip. I know exactly where my hand is. It's going to be in that spot all the every time.

When I switch guns I do see a difference. I find myself looking for that point. My hand remembers the overall feel of the grip so on a different gun I may be too low or grip is slightly off. Repetition and the borring same gun every day is what works

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Gymnasts and figure skaters do not rely on others for the success or failures of their execution of fine motor skills. All the training in the world will not prevent some mistakes. Fatigue, injury, stress, pain--- all non training related sources of mistakes. Same with the golf swing, same with hand gun presentations.
 
Gymnasts and figure skaters do not rely on others for the success or failures of their execution of fine motor skills. All the training in the world will not prevent some mistakes. Fatigue, injury, stress, pain--- all non training related sources of mistakes. Same with the golf swing, same with hand gun presentations.

Let's put it this way. Practice A LOT and come back to me in a year and explain how those two things are related.

Using the slide release vs the slingshot method is fine motor skills. Drawing up and pushing out while NOT putting your hand on the trigger is not

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It really boils down to what you personally are comfortable with and your level of respect and handling of any firearm.

I don't want a safety but if the weapon has it I don't engage it.
(my Shield 45 has a safety). My weapons stay holstered unless I am at the range or cleaning so I am comfortable carrying with a loaded chamber and safety off.

You need to decide what is your comfort level and go with that.
Either way is perfect if you are comfortable with it.
 
The more complex a system is the more likely it is to fail. If I'm ever required to use a handgun in self defense I want to remove as many opportunities for the system to fail as I can. No chambering a round. No disengaging a safety.

I started out carrying a 1911 then switched to TDAs then switched to striker fired. Each transition was intended to simplify the process. I carried TDAs for 15 years or so and keeping my finger off the trigger is as much a part of my make up as some have said sweeping the safety off on the draw is for them.
 
The more complex a system is the more likely it is to fail. If I'm ever required to use a handgun in self defense I want to remove as many opportunities for the system to fail as I can. No chambering a round. No disengaging a safety.

I started out carrying a 1911 then switched to TDAs then switched to striker fired. Each transition was intended to simplify the process. I carried TDAs for 15 years or so and keeping my finger off the trigger is as much a part of my make up as some have said sweeping the safety off on the draw is for them.

A manual safety doesn't add all that much to the process. How many of us here have to think about stepping on the brake before shifting into gear? How many of us drive a manual transmission, either a bike or a car? Do they have to think about shifting gears, or do they just do it? I barely remember driving my screaming in labor wife to the hospital. If I somehow managed to start the car and drive 40 mikes, shifting gears along the way. If that isn't stress, tell me what is. I thought I was gonna have to deliver my daughter on the side of the road.
 
A manual safety doesn't add all that much to the process. How many of us here have to think about stepping on the brake before shifting into gear? How many of us drive a manual transmission, either a bike or a car? Do they have to think about shifting gears, or do they just do it? I barely remember driving my screaming in labor wife to the hospital. If I somehow managed to start the car and drive 40 mikes, shifting gears along the way. If that isn't stress, tell me what is. I thought I was gonna have to deliver my daughter on the side of the road.

How big are brake pedals, gas pedals, clutch pedals, and gear shift handles compared to a thumb safety lever? How often do you operate the controls of a car? How often do you operate the controls of your gun? How many people have hit the gas instead of the brake under stress (or under no stress), even though they know how to drive and have been doing so for years?

I'm not saying nobody should ever use a manual safety-equipped pistol for self defense. With sufficient training I think they can be used effectively. History bears that out. But adding even a simple step can complicate things when the balloon goes up. Not acknowledging that is the problem.
 
How big are brake pedals, gas pedals, clutch pedals, and gear shift handles compared to a thumb safety lever? How often do you operate the controls of a car? How often do you operate the controls of your gun? How many people have hit the gas instead of the brake under stress (or under no stress), even though they know how to drive and have been doing so for years?

I'm not saying nobody should ever use a manual safety-equipped pistol for self defense. With sufficient training I think they can be used effectively. History bears that out. But adding even a simple step can complicate things when the balloon goes up. Not acknowledging that is the problem.

When the balloon goes up? How many times does that happen? You ever pull a weapon in self defense?

And taking away that simple step has spilled more blood than adding it. Or haven't you heard of Glock Leg?

And 5 minutes a day drawing and flicking safety off to build muscle memory isn't much of a burden
 
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A manual safety doesn't add all that much to the process. How many of us here have to think about stepping on the brake before shifting into gear? How many of us drive a manual transmission, either a bike or a car? Do they have to think about shifting gears, or do they just do it? I barely remember driving my screaming in labor wife to the hospital. If I somehow managed to start the car and drive 40 mikes, shifting gears along the way. If that isn't stress, tell me what is. I thought I was gonna have to deliver my daughter on the side of the road.

You may certainly carry any gun you chose in whatever manner you see fit

When the balloon goes up? How many times does that happen

An estimated 2.5 million times a year.

You ever pull a weapon in self defense?

Oddly enough, yes and it almost had a very (for me) negative ending because my gun was in an unready to fire condition.
 
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A manual safety doesn't add all that much to the process. How many of us here have to think about stepping on the brake before shifting into gear? How many of us drive a manual transmission, either a bike or a car? Do they have to think about shifting gears, or do they just do it? .

All that came with practice.....lots of practice! Every day with repetition. When I first started driving stick I'd forget to take it out of neutral when the light turned green. Muscle memory was for an auto so I'd just give it gas which would rev the engine while I'm panicking thinking my car broke down then a sudden....DUH... stick!!!! Eventually clutch and stick came naturally. But you practice that more than anything else. How many times in your trip do you hit the breaks or the clutch and shifter? A lot! I'll try to remember to count on Monday when I go to work but I bet it's several hundred times. Now....how often does one practice drawing and disengaging the safety? No where near as much

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All that came with practice.....lots of practice! Every day with repetition. When I first started driving stick I'd forget to take it out of neutral when the light turned green. Muscle memory was for an auto so I'd just give it gas which would rev the engine while I'm panicking thinking my car broke down then a sudden....DUH... stick!!!! Eventually clutch and stick came naturally. But you practice that more than anything else. How many times in your trip do you hit the breaks or the clutch and shifter? A lot! I'll try to remember to count on Monday when I go to work but I bet it's several hundred times. Now....how often does one practice drawing and disengaging the safety? No where near as much

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You're quoting Glock's sales pitch. "No need to practice. Just point and squeeze".

Call me crazy, but I guess I think that those who choose to carry a deadly weapon should actually spend some time practicing with it. 10 minutes a night is several hundred times a week. Over 1000 a month. Totally intuitive to me now.
 
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You're quoting Glock's sales pitch. "No need to practice. Just point and squeeze".

Call me crazy, but I guess I think that those who choose to carry a deadly weapon should actually spend some time practicing with it. 10 minutes a night is several hundred times a week. Over 1000 a month. Totally intuitive to me now.

I don't know what their sales pitch is. I do carry a Glock but I also practice constantly. Take classes and outside of that I do about half a case a week in ammo, not counting drawing and dry firing at home. However, honestly.....how often do you think an avg gun owner practices especially with a safety?

Exactly..."point and squeeze". No need to add extra. After all you could be even safer and carry safety on without a round chambered....all you'd need is practice. Or no mag in the gun.... just practice inserting the gun, racking the slide and taking the safety off!

Why add extra steps?

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The manual transmission/manual safety analogy is only relatively accurate in terms of everyday carry and range time. For a fair comparison, we need proper context and would have to figure in operating the vehicle in a similar environment in which an armed civilian might have to use their weapon, so how well might a given individual operate a manual transmission with a violent assailant sitting in the passenger seat or coming through the drivers side window a la Michael Brown trying to punch, stab, shoot them or attempting to grab the shifter.
 
Just my personal opinion, but a DAO sub compact would solve the OP's issue nicely. I normally carry a 9mm Sig P290 RS with an 8-round extended magazine. I keep one of the standard 6-round mags handy in a pocket.
 
I appreciated the ambi thumb safety on my M&P 9 as I felt comfortable with it unholstered in a night stand drawer with a round chambered and the thumb safety engaged.
 
I don't know what their sales pitch is. I do carry a Glock but I also practice constantly. Take classes and outside of that I do about half a case a week in ammo, not counting drawing and dry firing at home. However, honestly.....how often do you think an avg gun owner practices especially with a safety?

Exactly..."point and squeeze". No need to add extra. After all you could be even safer and carry safety on without a round chambered....all you'd need is practice. Or no mag in the gun.... just practice inserting the gun, racking the slide and taking the safety off!

Why add extra steps?

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Inserting a mag and chambering a round requires two hands. Disengaging the safety requires one. Big difference.

And Glock does market their product as being "simple". "No safety lever to fumble with". " no different trigger pull". They literally market their product to those who don't want to spend any time practicing.

Again, Glock Leg didn't come from nowhere.

And please don't compare a revolver or DAO pistol without a safety to a Glock or other similar weapon. When revolvers or DAO pistols have a 5.5 pound trigger then maybe you'll have a point.
 
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Confused Yet?

I'm new, so forgive me if this is an old topic (figure it has to be but tried looking & came up empty).

For concealed carry, all the prevailing wisdom seems to point to not bothering with a safety and carrying a topped-off mag with a chambered round.

For a newbie like me, can someone tell me if and when a safety is even desirable?

Thanks for any input.

Polaris210:
You asked for input. Well, with the proliferation of genuine good input that you'v received, and you ain't confused yet, you are incapable of being confused. Well, I'll throw in some of my "bull spit" to help. Without knowing how, and how much, you will be training, the inherent safety of a revolver can't be beat. If a pistol is a choice you won't deviate from, you might want to consider one of the very best concealed carry pistols made, the ultra small L. W. Seecamp pistols. They are double action only, with no safety at all. I am never concerned about safety while caring mine, or my . J frame, S&W revolvers. I am not opposed to carrying one of my S&W "Lemon Squeezers" occasionally ether, but they do have a "grip safety". Now we can sit back, and listen to The virtues of Big bore, versus. small bore, etc.
Hope this "helps/ confuses"?. OBW, this is the Concealed Cary weapon that I carry the most.

Chubbo
 

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Inserting a mag and chambering a round requires two hands. Disengaging the safety requires one. Big difference.

And Glock does market their product as being "simple". "No safety lever to fumble with". " no different trigger pull". They literally market their product to those who don't want to spend any time practicing with.

Again, Glock Leg didn't come from nowhere.

No safety lever no different trigger pull. I called that consistency. Everything is the same from beginning to end. I carry the same gun 24/7 365 because of consistency. Nothing changes everything is the same there are no surprises there's nothing extra to remember or practice. It's borring but borring works.

Yes ....tow hands. I do two hand grip. If you feel that uncomfortable you my as well bring up a magazine with the second hand.

Glock lags don't come from nowhere but I've also seen a Glock leg with a 1911. It's on YouTube, check it out. If you don't want to invest in the holster and proper training that's what you get. Most people buy the gun and buy the cheapest crappiest holster they can find. That has nothing to do with the gun that's due to user

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I appreciated the ambi thumb safety on my M&P 9 as I felt comfortable with it unholstered in a night stand drawer with a round chambered and the thumb safety engaged.

Why? It can't go off sitting on the night stand all by itself! What makes it more "comfortable" aside from feelings ...which can't be measured or quantified

Do you have knives on safeties at night? They are just as likely to hurt you as that M&P!

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