Victory data base

[Absalom]

Is there such a thing as a Victory box?

Good question. Most likely a plain brown kraft box, similar to the Commando boxes.

There is the famous photo, also reprinted in Pate, of BSR Victorys being unpacked in Britain which appears to show such packaging.

Interestingly, while there are quite a few newish unissued Commandos in original boxes around (as well as plenty of new "replica" boxes, a.k.a. fakes), I have never laid eyes on a documented original US Victory box. But there are others here with a lot longer exposure than I've had, so maybe someone has a picture of one.

 

[Paladinsgun]

Yeah, that's not the right box or documents for a Victory. Model numbers weren't around then. And in your picture of the revolver, those aren't Victory stocks . . .

Can't argue with you about that. I think the original owner may be confused about the state of the gun when it was sold. New vs like new. Although he's pretty adamant that he never owned a 'Model 10' other than the Victory that he thinks was sold to him as a Model 10. I think it's time to order a letter from S&W to pin down when and to whom it was shipped to. Thanks for the input.

 

[Paladinsgun]

As Muss says, neither the box nor the papers are in any way related to the Victory model you showed. The instructions are for a regular post-1958/59 Model 10, as appears to be the box. They met up sometime before the sale in 1960; if Elliott's sold this as new and under warranty, they cheated.

I never dealt with Elliott's and I don't mean to infer that they did anything unethical. All the information comes from a guy that I've know for 40 years who has always been reliable. Because the basis of the information about the gun is anecdotal I think the only solution is to order a letter from S&W and see where it leads. Thanks for the input.

 

[kwill1911]

I never dealt with Elliott's and I don't mean to infer that they did anything unethical. All the information comes from a guy that I've know for 40 years who has always been reliable. Because the basis of the information about the gun is anecdotal I think the only solution is to order a letter from S&W and see where it leads. Thanks for the input.

Please report back when you get the letter.

 

[ordnanceguy]

Yes, there was indeed a distinctive box within which the Victory Model was shipped. It was a single piece of folded, corrugated cardboard taped close with the serial number penciled on the bottom. The USGI guns had the Ordnance Department Escutcheon stamped in red ink on the box as well.

I don't have handy any pics of the two boxes in my collection but do have in my archives the image posted below of an authentic Victory box. I believe this one was probably for a DSC gun. I don't recall where I got this image or I would offer the proper credit for it here.

The Colt Commando boxes were 2 piece boxes of a different construction.

 

[AZret11B]

Hello, I'm new to the forum and picked up a Victory recently to add to the database. I found it local but didn't pick it up initially due to having reservations about it being an actual Victory. Here's the details:

Finish is dull but definitely not blue.
Smooth grips
Lanyard ring
4" barrel
38 s&w special ctg
Serial #: V 227198
Serial number match on grips, cylinder, extractor star, barrel flat

Here's why I had issues at first. The butt and top strap are lacking markings. But both places seem too have been modified due to possible machine scratches. The left top strap has light rust and the right does not. Mechanically, the gun is outstanding and the bore is clean. After following this thread, I saw some around this number I would guess puts it around Jan-Feb 1943. I'm not looking at making anything off it and it would probably just get shot here and there. I was looking at getting the factory letter for it just to see what additional info I can get on it. Let me know if any other info is needed. I'll try t get pics up but Photobucket just changed their policy.

Derek

 

[Absalom]

Hello, I'm new to the forum and picked up a Victory recently to add to the database. I found it local but didn't pick it up initially due to having reservations about it being an actual Victory. Here's the details:

Finish is dull but definitely not blue.
Smooth grips
Lanyard ring
4" barrel
38 s&w special ctg
Serial #: V 227198
Serial number match on grips, cylinder, extractor star, barrel flat

Here's why I had issues at first. The butt and top strap are lacking markings. But both places seem too have been modified due to possible machine scratches. The left top strap has light rust and the right does not. Mechanically, the gun is outstanding and the bore is clean. After following this thread, I saw some around this number I would guess puts it around Jan-Feb 1943. ....

You have the gun dated about right, and it does appear to be an "actual Victory".

The topstrap of a US version Victory like this may or may not be marked with a property stamping; guns that shipped to non-military destinations were not. However, if the appearance of the left and right topstrap surface are noticably different, that would give me pause.

Of more concern is the butt. I hope for you that the markings the butt lacks does not include the serial number there; that could be a legal issue.

 

[DWalt]

"The butt ... (is) lacking markings"

Is it your meaning that there is no SN on the butt, or it may have been removed?

 

[AZret11B]

Sorry, I worded it wrong when I said no marking the V is missing.

Derek

 

[Absalom]

Sorry, I worded it wrong when I said no marking the V is missing.
...

Phew. That's not something I'd worry about overmuch, although it is a bit odd if the V is present in the other locations like cylinder face and barrel flat. Someone must have "cleaned up" the other side of the lanyard hole, where the V was located. Technically, it's still a mutilated frame serial, and illegal, but realistically, I'd worry more about getting hit by an engine falling off a jetliner flying overhead.

 

[AZret11B]

Phew. That's not something I'd worry about overmuch, although it is a bit odd if the V is present in the other locations like cylinder face and barrel flat. Someone must have "cleaned up" the other side of the lanyard hole, where the V was located. Technically, it's still a mutilated frame serial, and illegal, but realistically, I'd worry more about getting hit by an engine falling off a jetliner flying overhead.

Yeah the gun shop here would not have taken it if it was missing the butt serial number. Having seen what people do to guns, if someone removed the US Prop marking, I just shake my head thinking they probably didn't know or care about it. When I first saw it I assumed it was a DSC gun or a pre-model. I had t really look fr the V under the barrel and the other locations due t the amount of oil and dirt/carbon.

Derek

 

[damascusdave]

Just this morning I decided I ought to post about my experience with what I believe to be a Victory model and I am happy to see this thread.
Unfortunately we are doing this in absentia (old school for without the gun in hand) as I sold it over 35 years ago.
I bought it in a local gun shop, where I knew the owner well, in the mid 70's. When I got to the shop that morning Ken was in negotiations with a lady who had brought the gun in. She left it behind for a while as she had other business to do. I asked Ken about it and he told me she was selling it because she no longer wanted her husband to have it in the house. He said to offer her 40 dollars for it and she took the offer.
The interesting part of that gun is that, although it was marked 38 S and W on the barrel it was overmarked 38 Special on the barrel flat and was in fact totally correctly chambered for 38 Special.
When I sold the gun to a Smith and Wesson collector in the mid 80's the mystery was solved. Very simply the gun had been bored and sleeved and the chambers cut for 38 Special. He felt that work, because it was done so well that the sleeve lines were only barely detectable on two chambers, would have likely been done by the British firm of Parker Hale. And I over doubled what I paid for it, selling it for 100CAD.
I wish I still had that gun so I could tell you more. Hopefully it has already made it into this database and one day when I have more time I will find it here.

 

[damascusdave]

My foggy memory tells me that another thing I never really understood about that gun is that it did not have a V prefix in the serial number. Which I am guessing is because it is what is referred to today as a preVictory gun.
It had a 5 inch barrel and what certainly appeared to be original checkered grips. I cannot remember if it has a lanyard ring but my gut tells me it did not.

 

[Absalom]

My foggy memory tells me that another thing I never really understood about that gun is that it did not have a V prefix in the serial number. Which I am guessing is because it is what is referred to today as a preVictory gun.
It had a 5 inch barrel and what certainly appeared to be original checkered grips. I cannot remember if it has a lanyard ring but my gut tells me it did not.

If, as it appears, it did indeed have a pre-Victory serial number, the checkered stocks could have been original.

However, this having been one of the Parker-Hale sleeved guns, it is more likely it had a set of the post-war British checkered replacement stocks which we usually see on guns refurbished in Britain. They are encountered with original or shortened barrels, frequently have new sights (usually not the ones with original barrel length like the one you describe), and were often refinished in a commercial blue.

 

[damascusdave]

That is the last part of the puzzle that started over 40 years ago for me. It did have a commercial blue finish. It makes sense that Parker-Hale would have done that.
Thanks for maintaining this thread.

 

[SgtOsiris]

British Victory for Database

Serial V 509771 38 S&W, 5 inch, flaming bomb US Property GHD marked full matching serials even to right grip. “P” marking to cylinder, under barrel and Frame. Has British proof markings under left grip.
From reading through this thread I’d assume it was shipped early 1944 ?

 

[Absalom]

Serial V 509771 38 S&W, 5 inch, flaming bomb US Property GHD marked full matching serials even to right grip. “P” marking to cylinder, under barrel and Frame. Has British proof markings under left grip.
From reading through this thread I’d assume it was shipped early 1944 ?

Indeed, the data would suggest early 1944.

Your gun is in quite exceptional condition. Great original finish, vibrant case color. It’s very interesting about the commercial proofs; I’ve never seen those under the grip panels. Are the ones pictured the only ones? It should have the .38 .767” etc. somewhere. Any BNP on the cylinder?

 

[SgtOsiris]

Indeed, the data would suggest early 1944.

Your gun is in quite exceptional condition. Great original finish, vibrant case color. It’s very interesting about the commercial proofs; I’ve never seen those under the grip panels. Are the ones pictured the only ones? It should have the .38 .767” etc. somewhere. Any BNP on the cylinder?

No, only proofs are those under left grip. None on cylinder or anywhere else.

 

[BruceHMX]

One more for the data base. V708806, 5 inch barrel, 38 S&W. Barrel, cylinder and frame match. No US Property marking. P marking left side top of frame. No British sold out of service marks. Has a small arrow pointing at V on butt. Another small arrow left frame behind cylinder release. A very small pinpoint star on frame in front of cylinder another on top of barrel almost at frame. These are not S&W rework stars and they are not the same configuration. Revolver has been suncorited in past however most is worn off barrel and top strap. I suspect Indian ownership as there is what appears to be a rack number painted in white on side plate where S&W emblem would be. Number is 170. Chamber and bore are bright and shinny. Still in the original 38 S&W caliber. Lack of US Property seemed odd.

 

[Absalom]

One more for the data base. V708806, 5 inch barrel, 38 S&W. Barrel, cylinder and frame match. No US Property marking. P marking left side top of frame. ......
Revolver has been suncorited in past however most is worn off barrel and top strap. I suspect Indian ownership as there is what appears to be a rack number painted in white on side plate where S&W emblem would be. Number is 170. Chamber and bore are bright and shinny. Still in the original 38 S&W caliber. Lack of US Property seemed odd.

You’re almost correct, except Pakistani, not Indian.

The topstrap stamping has to have been there with that serial, as all BSR’s were Lend-lease at that time (late 1944), but this stamp was much shallower than others and likely was buffed off. The Pakistani refinish isn’t the same as the British Suncorite as far as I know; it’s coarser and could easily have wiped out the remnants of the property marking.