Excessive copper in bore?

[andyo5]

So basically any bore cleaner with a copper dissolving component will ruin the finish on your barrel?

No, that's not what I said.
Any solvent containing ammonia, according to S&W, will damage the nitrated finish in the bore. No ammonia, no problem.
So I guess I'll stick to MC7 and Hoppe's for this gun. They take longer than Sweet's, but they will still get the copper out.

 

[andyo5]

Here's an excerpt from a Field and Stream article from 2015 that I found online. The URL is Gun Cleaning, Part 2: Copper Fouling | Field & Stream.

"So, you’ve got copper. How do you get rid of it? There are three ways: First, let the bore soak in Shooter’s Choice or Hoppe’s, muzzle pointed slightly down, until green gravy collects at the muzzle. (By the way, put a newspaper under the muzzle. Dissolved copper makes fabulous stains). Run another wet patch through, and repeat as needed. This process works most of the time, and does not involve elbow grease, but is very slow. It can take days to get the job done completely, and there are cases of copper fouling where it has no effect at all, and I have no idea why.

Or you can use the two ammonia-based copper killers I mentioned earlier. Use them in the garage, AND DO NOT LEAVE THEM IN THE BORE FOR LONGER THAN THE DIRECTIONS SAY; THEY WILL PIT YOUR BARREL. I speak from experience. Do not put copper killer on a bronze brush. Bronze is a copper alloy, and the ammonia will eat it. This method is much faster than the powder solvent route, but again, there are some cases of copper fouling that it won’t budge, and I have no idea why.

Third is the one I use: J-B Non-Embedding Bore Cleaning Compound. It comes in a little white jar, and is a mixture of grease and very fine polishing rouge. It requires elbow grease, but it always works*, and works best in combination with a penetrating oil called Kroil."

 

[MichiganScott]

I spoke with Tom in S&W customer service today. After conferring with two other technicians, he affirmed the following:

1. The amount of copper I am seeing is normal for these rifles.
2. Use of ammoniated solvents such as Sweet's will ruin the nitrided finish in the bore. This is not what I wanted to hear, but there it is.

Interesting, since salt bath nitiding actually hardens and changes the molecular structure of the bore surface and is not a finish. Perhaps he was talking about chrome or something was lost in translation.

 

[andyo5]

Interesting, since salt bath nitiding actually hardens and changes the molecular structure of the bore surface and is not a finish. Perhaps he was talking about chrome or something was lost in translation.

Nothing lost in the translation, Scott.
Either you believe him or you don't, but there was no doubt as to what he told me.

 

[Culina]

No, that's not what I said.
Any solvent containing ammonia, according to S&W, will damage the nitrated finish in the bore. No ammonia, no problem.
So I guess I'll stick to MC7 and Hoppe's for this gun. They take longer than Sweet's, but they will still get the copper out.

It would appear that Hoppes you have been using has some ammonia in it, that is why your patches are coming out blue. Don't worry though, I am sure its not the end of the world. I use Hoppes #9, benchrest, and Elite, Sweets 7.62 and a few others, I have left them to soak over night, used power drills to spin chamber brushes and done some other things I probably shouldn't have and so far I have not seen any damage. I also do not own any firearms with a melanite finish besides the Glock barrels so my experience is somewhat limited.

 

[andyo5]

It would appear that Hoppes you have been using has some ammonia in it, that is why your patches are coming out blue.

Well by gosh, you are right. I just pulled up the MSDS sheets on both Hoppe's #9 and MC-7. Hoppe's does contain 1% to 5% ammonium hydroxide.
MC-7 does not contain ammonia, but has some real hazards as regards inhalation, absorbtion thru the skin , and potential organ damage because of this. Flash temperature is 117F, which seems awfully low.

I think I am going to become alot more careful with the MC-7, and maybe discontinue it altogether.

I am going to call S&W again regarding Hoppe's, because they did not seem to think there was a problem when I mentioned it.
I will say, however, that Sweet's contains 5% ammonia but it smells strongly of it, while Hoppe's does not.

 

[Culina]

Well by gosh, you are right. I just pulled up the MSDS sheets on both Hoppe's #9 and MC-7. Hoppe's does contain 1% to 5% ammonium hydroxide.
MC-7 does not contain ammonia, but has some real hazards as regards inhalation, absorbtion thru the skin , and potential organ damage because of this. Flash temperature is 117F, which seems awfully low.

I think I am going to become alot more careful with the MC-7, and maybe discontinue it altogether.

I am going to call S&W again regarding Hoppe's, because they did not seem to think there was a problem when I mentioned it.
I will say, however, that Sweet's contains 5% ammonia but it smells strongly of it, while Hoppe's does not.

aww shucks, and I was going to buy some MC-7, I read up on it after you mentioned it and they made it sound like the next best thing since pre-sliced bread. Truth be told, the best thing for scrubbing a bore is a stainless brush. Some people will say never do it but any stainless bore brush should be a 304 or 316 stainless which will be much softer than any barrel steel or stainless barrel. You don't need to go to town on it either a couple passes after you wet it with your favorite bore cleaner does wonders.

Another major contributing factor to fouling is what you are shooting, milspec M855 or M193 will be the dirtiest, the projectiles have an exposed lead base, they seal them to the neck with bitumen (asphalt) and then they are usually copper plated steel. So with those you will get copper, lead, powder (mostly graphite) and asphalt fouling. As the makers of MC-7 noted, you will need more than one type of bore cleaner to get all that out.

 

[cardguy]

Boretech CU +2 will safely remove copper.
BARREL SAFE NON HAZARDOUS AMMONIA FREE
ODOR FREE BIODEGRADABLE USER FRIENDLY

 

[andyo5]

This afternoon, I picked up a bottle of MPro-7 copper remover, which does not contain ammonia and is advertised as non toxic and non flammable. The manufacturer claims that it removes copper 4X faster than ammonia.
Since all 12 previous patches had come out blue, I assumed that I would see more copper. But after two patches using MPro-7, I saw no copper (no blue color). The patch had light grey dirt but no evidence of copper.
So now I am wondering why all the patches using Hoppe's and Shooter's Choice MC-7 came out blue.

 

[Culina]

If you are using a bronze brush or a brass tip on then end of your cleaning rod, copper solvent will make your patches blue since both are copper alloys.

 

[andyo5]

If you are using a bronze brush or a brass tip on then end of your cleaning rod, copper solvent will make your patches blue since both are copper alloys.

No copper tools, except for the jag I use to push the patch out.
The patch holder is steel and the brush is nylon bristle with steel shank.

 

[vonn]

It would be interesting to know if Hoppes would show color after you used the MPro. Can you feel sticky spots when you run a tight patch down the bore? Would also want to see if I could find someone who had a bore scope to see inside the barrel.

 

[Kadonny]

Yes. Sierra bullets, and Federal commercial ammunition. Makes no difference.
Do you get less copper out of yours? If so, what cleaner do you use?

I get very little, if any copper out of any of my rifles barrels when cleaning. Go figure.

 

[MichiganScott]

I get very little, if any copper out of any of my rifles barrels when cleaning. Go figure.

CFE223 is not the only powder on the market with decoppering agents incorporated into the formulation.

 

[andyo5]

UPDATE

CFE223 is not the only powder on the market with decoppering agents incorporated into the formulation.

I tried CFE223 a few weeks ago, but did not see a reduction in copper.
Now I know why. There was already copper in the bore prior to my trial of CFE223.
Well sports fans, I think I am onto something here. I mentioned that I tried MPro-7 copper remover yesterday, with middling results. But while on their website, I saw a comment that said a metal bristled brush was necessary to remove copper, not a nylon brush. I have been using a nylon brush.
So I went out today nd found a bronze brush designed for .223/5.56. Substituting it for the nylon brush, I have reached a new level in copper removal.
It now seems possible that I have been building up copper in the bore ever since I started shooting this rifle, since I used only a nylon bore brush. With MPro-7, the patches come out with army green goop instead of bright blue stain. Different chemistry.
So I will keep working on it and give an update if and when the copper is gone. BTW, MPro-7 has no odor and is non-toxic. It is much more pleasent to use, safer, and has a much higher WAF (wife approval factor).

 

[bamashooter]

Good deal. Does the solution not degrade a copper / bronze bore brush or at least "indicate" you have a never ending buildup of copper?

 

[andyo5]

Good deal. Does the solution not degrade a copper / bronze bore brush or at least "indicate" you have a never ending buildup of copper?

At the moment, it looks like an unending supply of copper.

 

[vonn]

Keep us posted with your results.

 

[andyo5]

Keep us posted with your results.

The last two patches, in addition to the green goop; showed lots of tiny copper flakes.
My method is apply the product with a steel patch holder and stroke back & forth several times, wait at least 10 minutes (once overnight), dry brush 4 times with a bronze brush, then remove with a clean patch over a bronze jag.
I dunk the brush into a bowl of water as soon as I am finished using it. It does not appear to be deteriorating.

 

[andyo5]

Looks like I'm done. After 20 go arounds of wet patch/brush/dry patch, I was still getting green color out of the barrel. So I called Hoppe's and talked to a guy in customer service. He told me to quit using the brush because after 20 rounds, the barrel should be clean by now. So I ran some Hoppe's Copper Remover into the bore, let it sit for 30 minutes. When I patched it out, there was no color. I measured the diameter of my brush, and found it had decreased by 10 thousandths of an inch.
So it looks like the Mpro-7 worked, but if you decide to use it; don't use a bore brush past maybe the first go around. Use the brush prior to the copper remover, when you are removing powder fouling.