Anyone else spooked from buying military marked firearms

[jsfricks]

And at 335,000 total production, Ithaca built the least of any gun company contracted. And I don’t think they had any other big contracts.

Big contracts, no, but they did receive a government contract for several thousand 12 gauge Model 37 riot shotguns with M1917 bayonet attachments, and a quantity of sporting-type shotguns for various military purposes. (According to Clawson book). Another funny thing is, Ithaca made some beautiful shotguns in these days, but their version of the 1911A1 was some of the roughest finished of all manufacturers.

 

[GT_80]

Takedown lever scratches wouldn't bother me- If it's a US army model, and may have been used in Battle, scratches add all the more character! Imagine a gun in a trench during a lull, taking his 1911 apart to clean and lube it. He's not gonna care if it's scratched, it's a service weapon. I think all the old ones are cool regardless of condition, and I bought an Auto Ordnance model, plain jane just because I like militariat and the Auto Ordnance was inexpensive, shoots good, and look old.

 

[spad124]

Yes, there can be a lot of forgery going on out there. You have to have an idea of what is correct and not. For example a while ago I saw a Russian Capture K98k "still" with stamped swastikas. Generally the Russians ground off the swastikas and then refinished the metal quickly and cheaply. So this rifle just didn't look right. Could the commisar have missed grinding off the reich's ID? Sure. Was it likely? Probably not.

Plus, most surplus military firearms that were used have through some sort of rearsenaling process. While some countries kept numbered parts together, the goal of rebuilding military weapons is to produce as many functional firearms as possible. So I'm actually a little cautious of numbers matching guns. A mixmaster may be less likely to have been faked and more authentic than a numbers matching gun. My Garand, M1 Carbine, M1917 Eddystone, and RC K98k are all mixmasters and have been clearly used and "been there".

My RC K98k, for example, has a '42 Gustloff reciever, a '41 FN barrel, and a '41 Gustloff stock. The barrel has very little wear but was obviously refinished by the Russians at the same time as the reciever. So the rifle would probably have a pretty interesting story to tell about the Eastern front, being refinished by the Soviets, then sitting in some former Soviet state's arsenal of last ditch weapons for 50 years until the breakup of the USSR and finally making its way to Illinois. To me, that's interesting.

 

[bushmaster1313]

Where's the US Property stamping? Should be on the right side of the frame.

Indoor lighting

 

[BigBill]

Some American made guns have the flaming bomb.

Knowledge, research,, newccindex

symbolism

 

[BigBill]

I seen the surplus guns come from the boat I swear the shellac was still wet. They probably refinished them on the way here. What cracks me up is the saying, ‘ oh look at what we found in a warehouse in Europe” ya sure and there unissued too.

 

[moosedog]

Back to the original question, you don't have to purchase books like I did as you can search the internet and go on gun specific forums to acquire knowledge. I think the key for a beginner is to narrow your focus to a specific gun that you desire to buy and research the heck out of it until you feel a little more comfortable. Also, make friends with those that are knowledgeable on your interest if possible. Good luck.
Most of my Military 1911's have the same scratch. Not a big deal.

 

[VaTom]

Some American made guns have the flaming bomb.

Knowledge, research,, newccindex

symbolism

The Ordnance mark (cartouche) is shown in one of the OP's pictures. The crossed cannons on the upper left on right side of the frame back of the grip. Many of these marks are lightly struck and don't show up well. My 1943 Ithaca 1911A1 has a flaming bomb mark on the inside of the frame in the channel under recoil spring. You need a magnifying glass to see it well. I believe they stopped marking them there later in production. Before I bought mine 10 years ago I really educated myself on them. One of the best online resources for military .45s is Ty's Cool Gunsite.

 

[jsfricks]

My 1943 Ithaca 1911A1 has a flaming bomb mark on the inside of the frame in the channel under recoil spring. You need a magnifying glass to see it well. I believe they stopped marking them there later in production.

My 1943 Ithaca is stamped with the flaming bomb in the same location. It’s also stamped with the bomb under the firing pin stop, which Ithaca did on serial number 856405 through roughly 1279673 and occasionally later.

 

[Watchdog]

Big contracts, no, but they did receive a government contract for several thousand 12 gauge Model 37 riot shotguns with M1917 bayonet attachments, and a quantity of sporting-type shotguns for various military purposes. (According to Clawson book).

A lot of people don't know that about the WWII Ithacas. When they think of wartime shotguns, the Winchester Model 12 usually comes to mind first, and then the old dependable Model 97.

There's a really good article from the American Rifleman of May 18, 2015 that gives a good account of the wartime Ithacas. It's by Bruce Canfield, a guy who knows a thing or two about military shotguns. You can read it by clicking here.

Another funny thing is, Ithaca made some beautiful shotguns in these days, but their version of the 1911A1 was some of the roughest finished of all manufacturers.

I'd probably agree with that for the most part. I have an all original '44 Ithaca 1911A1, and tool marks are definitely visible on the frame. It doesn't detract from its appearance for me, but people who are more used to the pretty boy 1911s of today would probably look down their noses at it.

And the trigger on it is not quite as crisp as it is on my '43 Remington Rand...has just a tad of creep in it. But it does what it's supposed to do, and that's what counts.

And at 335,000 total production, Ithaca built the least of any gun company contracted. And I don’t think they had any other big contracts.

Well, no. Not quite. Union Switch & Signal (US&S) made only 55,000 pistols in their single year of production, 1943.

And don't forget one of the Holy Grail guns in the known universe...the Singer 1911A1...only 500 ever made. Serial Number S800001 sold for $80,500 back in December of 2010. It'd probably hit $100K today. Seriously...serial number 1 of only 500 made...are you kiddin' me?

 

[Watchdog]

One of the best online resources for military .45s is Ty's Cool Gunsite.

That site is fantastic. A year or two ago, it went completely offline...just dead. I understood it was because the site's owner ran into a bit of financial difficulty, and the last thing on his mind was maintaining a website. I seem to remember he gave a brief explanation of why the site had gone down when he rebooted it...but I might be mistaken.

So when it came back up after a few months, I went to it and made screenshots of just about everything on there concerning 1911s and 1911A1s. Production figures, markings, history, what have you.

Then after cropping, combining, and arranging all the screenshots into files, I loaded them into my computers and my iPhone. Having that amount of info in my phone, in hand at gun shows has been an invaluable tool.

 

[2152hq]

Where ever there are large sums of $$ to be made,,the forgers and fakers move right in.
WW2 German Military uniform medals, badges and the like are another area where even some of the most seasoned collectors have backed out of buying much offered of late. Way too much out there that isn't what it appears to be.

 

[HARDWARE]

1945 ithaca with late style serrated hammer

 

[Watchdog]

This photo has been seen before, but I guess another time won't hurt.

My 1944 Ithaca 1911A1.

Click on the image if you want to see it larger.

 

[Absalom]

I came across this outfit a while ago and couldn’t believe it. They’ve got anything you might need to churn out collectible Nazi guns:

Stamps for german weapons - period to 1945 - Waffenamt shop

This reminds me a bit of those enterprises selling “locksmith tools” by mail. There may be legitimate applications, but I wouldn’t give the majority of customers the benefit of the doubt. They’re not located in the US, but ship internationally as far as I can tell.

 

[BigBill]

Stamps for all the German guns. Nice now what’s real and what’s fake?

Just don’t pay too much for a war relic.

I’d rather have a ww2 captured German k98 with the yugo markings on it. For $79 at the time I know it’s history. She’s a sweet German Mauser in yugo clothing. What a smooth action.

 

[TeamPB]

Spooked? Yes, its winter so the slippery slope is also frozen and I find myself picking up speed. In October I got my first CMP Garand (1955 Spingfield receiver, barrel, G.I. wood), the second CMP Garand in November (1943 Springfield receiver, 1952 barrel, G.I. wood), December saw the purchase of my first Carbine (1944 mostly correct Standard Products) and now?

I have a chunk of cash for one of the largest gun shows in our area. I had absolutely sworn off gun shows long ago and then again this summer. But, I need (ha!) an M1917 Eddystone or a Springfield 1903 of some type. I know just enough about both to be the perfect mark for some professional huckster. I want a shooter, so overall condition and bore, are hopefully enough to keep me away from trouble.Feel the fear and do it anyway. Target price $700 to $1000.

My need for another Garand and Carbine will be addressed later this year. I also plan in participating in the CMP's 1911 lottery. Full speed ahead,I can quit whenever I want, right?

 

[Watchdog]

Full speed ahead,I can quit whenever I want, right?

Of course you can.

 

[jsfricks]

Ive posted my 43’ Ithaca before but, hey, why not again.

 

[cmansguns]

I'll play

I remember when the OP bought this Ithaca some years ago and I sent him some PM's from this forum because he had posted it and some questions back then.

I agree with everyone about research as there is no substitute if you want to feel half decent about whatever amount of dough you forked over for the piece.

Check out the "military markings" Adobe attachment to this e-mail. I have seen sellers want to charge extra (big premium) because that Ithaca "was one of only a few that went to Switzerland in WWII in case they were overrun....blah...blah"

Are you kidding Mr. Seller? No says they...." want proof? check out the Swiss cross at left front of trigger guard! want more proof? See here...I have this other Ithaca for only $3K and it does not have the Swiss cross, so this one is a steal at $4k."

(See OP's post above with closeup of left side trigger guard.)

Without you having the knowledge that that cross (mine has it too) is an Ithaca only factory inspectors mark and then applied only after s/n 900,000 or so......you may be tempted to offer $3k for the "Swiss" when you probably should have been running from the dude.

For those looking for 03-A3 Springfields, you really must get a copy of Poyers book, Charlie Pates book on WWII handguns is valuable most all of the time, Ed Scott Meadows "US Military Automatic Pistols 1920-1945" is another "bible" you really need to have and study before the emotions of the find take over.

Sorry for my crappy photography...I usually cannot get the light, the gun, my hands, shutter finger to coordinate.

Now.......who among you is interested in my genuine Ithaca that was personally handed by Georgie Patton to the King of Morocco (you've seen the movie) and what? you say you want proof? Not only will I give you with the sale, a genuine written, notarized document attesting to above (disregard that it is written on a wordprocessor as the US had all those devices but they were secret) BUT I also show you the "crescent" mark on the left side trigger guard.

Come on Forum......no takers?