Low-density Powder for .38/.357

[Wise_A]

I'm not familiar with all the turret presses out there but the only way I can imagine that a Lee press can fail to advance is if it's broken. Since each advance is performed manually by lowering the handle you are actually looking at the press as you perform the operation. If for some reason it were to stop advancing it would never complete the round anyway.

On Lee auto-indexing turrets, there's a nylon or plastic wear ring that serves as the sacrificial link in between the lowering/raising ram and the index rod that rotates the turret head. It exists so that you don't break or wear something expensive, and it's an easily-replaced 25-cent part.

If you're careful when you swap turrets, this part lasts for thousands of rounds. If you're not, well...1500-2000, depending on the number of swaps.

Anyways, when it wears, it gets rounded-off where it contacts the index rod, so when you lower the ram (which should advance the turret), you get either a partial advance, or no advance at all. The wear ring just slides down and up the twist in the index rod that, if the ring contacted it right, would have spun the turret.

It'd be real hard to miss this when it happens. The lever pull feels wrong, even if you didn't watch the press. And most of the time, you get a partial advance where the turret stops halfway between the spring-loaded detent points. But--and this is key--people are idiots.

So that, and some kind of failure with the powder measure, are what I worry about. And really, mostly the powder measure, because I watch the press pretty closely. Close enough that I can actually see the powder charge drop from the charge hole on the disk through the powder measure, so I don't even worry about that too much.

 

[lebomm]

I believe the powder is the least expensive component in handloading. It is not worth it to use cost as the criteria for choice of powder.


There is 7,000g to a pound. At 5g load , 7,2000/5 =1400 rounds in a pound. Titegroup sells for $17.50. $17.50/1400=.012
Brass is $.25 (or free), bullets are $.10 to $.25. Powder is $.012.

But, if penny pinching is the goal: I don't know any better than TiteGroup for low cost rounds. That same density also makes it easy and dangerous to make a double charge. I love TiteGroup, but it is also spiky at max levels. The pressure does not rise linearly. For that reason, there are a fair number of folks that don't like TiteGroup.

TiteGroup of 5g in 357mag gets 950fps and 1" groups at 25 yards benchrest.

Prescut

As a safety issue, I think it's pretty essential that we express mathematical values accurately. Most of us, of course recognize that the discussion here is of US-centered values of pounds and grains. But what you have stated in your post is actually "7000 grams to the pound", and later, "..a five-gram load". The abbreviation "g" is for Grams. The abbreviation "gr" is for Grains. When discussing powders, a significantly different result is likely from confused vs. correct. Sorry to stray.

Larry

 

[rwsmith]

That's an important 'stray'....

As a safety issue, I think it's pretty essential that we express mathematical values accurately. Most of us, of course recognize that the discussion here is of US-centered values of pounds and grains. But what you have stated in your post is actually "7000 grams to the pound", and later, "..a five-gram load". The abbreviation "g" is for Grams. The abbreviation "gr" is for Grains. When discussing powders, a significantly different result is likely from confused vs. correct. Sorry to stray.

Larry

1 gram = 15.43 grains

Just thinking off the top of my head, it could be possible to get a load of some powders 15 times greater than specified into some cartridges.

 

[1sailor]

Wise A, After several thousand rounds I did round that little square plastic link. And just as you mention I did it because I was in too big a hurry when changing turrets. As you say, it is pretty obvious if that happens because the handle will just flop up and down doing nothing more than raising or lowering the ram. Personally I think that the Lee Turret presses are an exceptional value and even a good choice for novice loaders. With the indexing rod lifted out it can be used as a single stage press if so desired and for those of us who shoot a lot it can easily load 3 rounds per minute even at a careful and casual pace. I imagine that my Lee press will outlive me as after several thousand rounds it shows no wear signs what so ever. For a little over 100 bucks it's an exceptional value. I worried about the powder dropper when I first got it (the Auto- Disc Pro) but have found that my favorite powders (ball powders) actually meter quite consistently. It sounds like you either have one now or had one in the past yourself.

 

[sniper]

I wonder why the 2400/Unique days have gone? I do understand 2400, but a charge of 5.5 gr. Unique in a .357 Magnum case is very visible. 4.5-5 gr. Unique would probably also be visible in a .38 case. I load pistol from my Pacific measure, with each bushing's load verified multiple times by weighing/averaging each load, making a reference chart, then proceeding , guided by my figures. I don't load maximum...hot .38-Mild Magnum are plenty good, and I look into each and every case with a flashlight after charging, before seating/crimping on my single-stage press. Belt....suspenders! A double load or squib would be very noticeable. Weighing each pistol charge would be Cruel and Unusual Punishment, imnho! I do weigh all of my rifle charges, though.
Universal has very similar fill characteristics, and I am looking at AA#5 and HS6 or Herco as alternative powders, although I haven't been able to find much info on case fill for them. Blue Dot is a good powder, and manuals still have loads with lighter bullets. It will probably come down to buy it...try it, although that is somewhat expen$ive, if I buy an unsuitable powder(s). Bon Chance!

Reading one of the other posters' comments...Titegroup for $17.50.! On what planet? I would go there right now!

 

[mikld]

I guess, bottom line, if you trust your machine and powder measure, and the reloading gods, reloading on a progressive could be considered 100% safe (?), but if I couldn't verify the presence of a powder charge or a double charge, I'd suffer from the "tedium" and "too much work" of looking in each case. Maybe because in over 30 years of reloading I had only one squib, and no Kabooms...

 

[Sevens]

Titegroup for $17.50 a pound? Easily done if you buy your powder 4 or 8 pounds at a time. At this point, I (almost) have myself convinced that I just don't ever need to experiment with a new-to-me powder anymore (I've used sooooo many...) so when I want to buy any powder that I like & use, I won't even look at one pound cans. It's fiscally stupid for me to do so.

 

[Fishslayer]

Have some research to do. I think there are green dot pistol loads

Indeed there are. I started using Green Dot in '09 when Bullseye was impossible to find locally. Data is usually very close to Bullseye. It is just a tad slower.

Bullseye is readily available now but I usually just use Green Dot.

 

[Wise_A]

Wise A, After several thousand rounds I did round that little square plastic link. And just as you mention I did it because I was in too big a hurry when changing turrets. As you say, it is pretty obvious if that happens because the handle will just flop up and down doing nothing more than raising or lowering the ram. Personally I think that the Lee Turret presses are an exceptional value and even a good choice for novice loaders. With the indexing rod lifted out it can be used as a single stage press if so desired and for those of us who shoot a lot it can easily load 3 rounds per minute even at a careful and casual pace. I imagine that my Lee press will outlive me as after several thousand rounds it shows no wear signs what so ever. For a little over 100 bucks it's an exceptional value. I worried about the powder dropper when I first got it (the Auto- Disc Pro) but have found that my favorite powders (ball powders) actually meter quite consistently. It sounds like you either have one now or had one in the past yourself.

Oh, yes. I actually think the Lee auto-indexing turrets are great presses--I'm certainly not knocking the thing! For the amount that I shoot, and the amount of time that I have to do it in, it's just about perfect. It's not as fast as a manual-index progressive, but operating the Lee auto just feels so much less busy.

I simply brought up that one point because it's the turret I'm most familiar with.

I stuck with the Auto-Disk Pro as well. I haven't encountered any powders that I thought metered especially badly, but I haven't used any extruded stick powders. All it needs is a little "warm-up" time in the beginning--dropping and dumping 8-14 charges back into the hopper, advancing the turret around each time, and the thing is great. I even use the Adjustable Charge Bar.

 

[GeoJelly]

This continues to be a great read - Thanks Gents! I made it out to Cabela's in Gainesville yesterday. They had a surprisingly large selection of powders - although some cans were empty and marked 'Display'. Trail Boss was the cheapest at $17, 800x, Universal and HS-6 were around $22. None of the Dots or 2400. I almost bought the Trail Boss ... until I saw that I could get a hundred SIG .38 cases for the same price. And, I found Berry's plated 125-g's there for the same price as Midway without paying prolly $6 or $7 for shipping. I still had to pay just shy of $60 to get out of there so the powder will have to wait until next month ... . Unsolicited advice for anyone thinking about retiring - don't! I'm poor as a church mouse ... lotsa time on my hands to reload but the components are killing me. Last but not leasty, I've had a (used) 3-in .38 GP-100 for a couple of years that I've never fired. I'm going to run the 6.9-g PP loads thru it this week. The 686P is much easier to clean, since I can pull the cylinder, but there's no sense in letting the Ruger sit unfired all by itself.

 

[Rule3]

Gainesville Ga or Florida??

FYI, Trail Boss is not 16 oz or 1 lb, it is 9 oz. So you get less and use more of it. It has some uses but as a general reloading powder not real economical. It smells like Cowboy farts also.

You bought new 38 special brass?? Should have said something I and others have boatloads of once fired stuff.

 

[GeoJelly]

I shoulda been more specific - Gainesville, VA - in the Manassas area. I hear you on the Trail Boss - but the new bottle I checked seemed to be full so by-volume it should load a lot of rounds. I have been looking for clean once-fired .38 brass but haven't had much luck. Summer is coming up and it's cool in my basement & too hot to go out and walk or do yardwork in the middle of the day - so lotsa time to do some loading.

Edited to add - I thought I'd better stop bumping this post with my comments! Scales are also reasonable on A-zon - I will have one after SS rolls in next week. I made up six test rounds with the new Berry's plated bullets. Tickled to find that they have a nice bevel on them and I only had to very slightly bell the cases. Load is 5.6-ish (still no scale ) of PP. Just for giggles - I double-charged a couple of the cases ... and emptied them . Even with a flashlight, there isn't an immediate and easily noticeable diff in the .38 case between a single and a double-charge. And that was one of the reasons I re-started my revolver loading with .38SC. Investigation continues (I have lotsa time on weekends) but I'm leaning toward going back to Unique because it's VMD is .1092 - but Trail Boss is .2172!! If I was made out of money I guess I'd just go buy the over-priced plinkin' ammo at Cabela's like everyone else.

 

[1sailor]

You might also want to keep an eye on GB for range brass. .38 special and .357 cases usually bring a premium compared to 9mm or the like but you can find some pretty good prices sometimes. Of course the best deals will come along when you're broke but that's just the way of life I suppose. When Cabela's first started carrying the Sellier & Bellot primers they had them on sale for $14.99 for a brick of 1000. Luckily for me I was there at the right time and stocked up on them. I see their prices have gone up since then almost matching the CCI primers. Try to find someone else in your area that reloads. If you place your orders together it helps to spread out the shipping and hazardous materials fees. I should have mentioned this earlier but, also keep an eye on out own Accessories and Misc section of the forum. I've scored some great prices on there before. Guys know what it's worth but often like to keep a realistic price for other members.

 

[rwsmith]

Cheap scalels that work.....

The Lee Safety Scale you can get new or used starting around $18 for a refurbished one. New ones run a few dollars more. A little slow, but they work.

I have a Frankford Arsenal digital that runs around $30 that does a super job.

 

[1sailor]

From everything I've heard regarding the Lee Safety scale rwsmith's assessment is pretty right on. And honestly for all the talk regarding different powders and their relative safety and ability to fill the case, it's a lot like discussing which streets are safest to cross with our eyes closed. Please buy a scale. Even the little Lee scale can keep you safe and allow you to use the most efficient and cost effective powders for your task. With a new price between 25 and 30 bucks it is a bargain.

 

[Carrier]

This continues to be a great read - Thanks Gents! I made it out to Cabela's in Gainesville yesterday. They had a surprisingly large selection of powders - although some cans were empty and marked 'Display'. Trail Boss was the cheapest at $17, 800x, Universal and HS-6 were around $22. None of the Dots or 2400. I almost bought the Trail Boss ... until I saw that I could get a hundred SIG .38 cases for the same price. And, I found Berry's plated 125-g's there for the same price as Midway without paying prolly $6 or $7 for shipping. I still had to pay just shy of $60 to get out of there so the powder will have to wait until next month ... . Unsolicited advice for anyone thinking about retiring - don't! I'm poor as a church mouse ... lotsa time on my hands to reload but the components are killing me. Last but not leasty, I've had a (used) 3-in .38 GP-100 for a couple of years that I've never fired. I'm going to run the 6.9-g PP loads thru it this week. The 686P is much easier to clean, since I can pull the cylinder, but there's no sense in letting the Ruger sit unfired all by itself.

I'm 60 and will probably be working until I'm in the dirt. Bullseye and 231 are my most used powders for 38 special. Some will say Bullseye is too dirty but it's gunpowder. I just keep a rag damp with Ballistol and give my revolvers a wipe down after a hundred or so rounds. 231 is a bit cleaner but Bullseye is still the most accurate with 148 lead wadcutters out of my 14-3.

 

[rwsmith]

They all go ......

I'm 60 and will probably be working until I'm in the dirt. Bullseye and 231 are my most used powders for 38 special. Some will say Bullseye is too dirty but it's gunpowder. I just keep a rag damp with Ballistol and give my revolvers a wipe down after a hundred or so rounds. 231 is a bit cleaner but Bullseye is still the most accurate with 148 lead wadcutters out of my 14-3.

Yeah, they all go 'bang' and push a dense pellet out of the muzzle. Wipe off 'dirt' is not any kind of big deal. Using 2400 my gun turns a golden yellow like pollen, but it wipes right off. Hardly a consideration compared to good shooting.

 

[Qc Pistolero]

1sailor:SB primers vary quite a bit dimension wise.If used in a Dillon Square Deal B,this might cause some problems;at least the LPP.I've experienced it and one of my friends also did for the same reason.If used in a ss press then no problem.But don't be surprised if you feel the seating pressure is not the same from one another.
Rule 3:about Trail Boss,I like your appreciation about its smell(old cowboy's fart).On an earlier post I wrote it smells like''chicken manure''.While I'm not game at scientifically measuring the difference between your and my description,I guess our opinion about its smell pretty well matches!

 

[1sailor]

It might be that the issue with S&B primers is confined to progressive presses. I have fewer than 3000 of their primers left. That means I've loaded over 7000 of them. Other than a single failure to fire I haven't seen any other problems. I have had a lot of problems with Winchester primers though. I often had issues with them not seating properly without some real force. I never buy Winchester anymore. I have some left but would only use them is nothing else were available to me. Not fond of their brass in .357 either.

 

[GavinLee]

I got in a habit 40 years ago of never putting powder in a case without turning it upside down first. I actually keep my primed cases in my loading block upside down and only turn them over when they are charged. That being said I still look in the loading block of charged cases with a flash light before seating the bullets. Don't like to take chances!
Lots of good advice here on this thread.