In the field of psychology, the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people of low ability have illusory superiority and mistakenly assess their cognitive ability as greater than it is.
Carrying at the range?
- Thread starter Rastoff
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In the field of psychology, the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people of low ability have illusory superiority and mistakenly assess their cognitive ability as greater than it is.
Clearly, I have misunderestimated you . . .
Yet hundreds if not thousands of people defend themselves successfully every year with little to no training/practice.
Way back when people couldn’t afford to practice. Every bullet had better put food on the table. Were these folks poorly skilled too?
Your view of your fellow gun owners is very bleak. I find that typical of those that claim to have as much experience as you do and boast about it.
In life experience counts more than anything else. But some degree of common sense must accompany that experience.
OP
Rastoff
US Veteran
Actually, California has no shooting requirement in the law.
The Oklahoma CCW shooting portion is so easy, I shot it with my support hand while blindfolded. Don't believe me? Look...
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUHm2c9EW1E[/ame]
Confession: gun owners supporting tests and qualifications for CCW has got to be my biggest pet peeve, especially when those same gun owners claim to be ardent defenders of liberty. So here goes...
The only thing worse than having pointlessly simple or needlessly complex CCW shooting tests is having a test for CCW at all. Simply put, I believe that supporting tests and qualifications is incompatible with truly supporting the causes of private gun ownership and self-defense.
Will some goobers do stupid things with guns? Sure. The cost of freedom is that some people misuse it. But plenty of folks do just as much damage by abusing the First and Fourth Amendments, and I'm sure plenty of folks here are irritated at how others use their right to vote, and Congress' incessant abuse of their lack of term limits and budgetary authority.
The only thing worse than having pointlessly simple or needlessly complex CCW shooting tests is having a test for CCW at all. Simply put, I believe that supporting tests and qualifications is incompatible with truly supporting the causes of private gun ownership and self-defense.
- Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Idaho, Kansas, Maine, Mississippi, Missouri, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Vermont, West Virginia, and Wyoming all seem to be getting along just fine (hint: these are the constitutional carry states). That's about 7.5% of the US population.
- If you say the word "but" after "I support the Second Amendment", you don't support the Second Amendment.
- Requiring tests and classes and education and training makes CCW cost money. When the government mandates that you pay money to do a thing, we call that a "tax". If you believe that adequate self defense is a fundamental human right, then it is immoral to support taxing citizens who exercise it. It is even more immoral when you consider doing so means the poorest citizens, the ones most commonly victimized by crime, will be even less able to afford access to adequate self-defense.
- I've never heard a single person advocate for a shooting test they themselves couldn't pass, or a standard of training they hadn't already acquired.
- When you advocate in favor of a test you can pass, but others can not, that makes you an elitist.
- When you believe you should have access to adequate self defense, but other people are not worthy of wielding lethal force, that makes you Michael Bloomberg.
Will some goobers do stupid things with guns? Sure. The cost of freedom is that some people misuse it. But plenty of folks do just as much damage by abusing the First and Fourth Amendments, and I'm sure plenty of folks here are irritated at how others use their right to vote, and Congress' incessant abuse of their lack of term limits and budgetary authority.
Ziggy2525
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Yep. When you look at news reports and online videos of self defense shootings, it seems like most of the self defenders are more like the mom and daughter in the liquor store in Oklahoma than they are like tactical gurus.
The encounters are so close, having a weapon handy and being unwilling to be a victim is more important than marksmanship training, house clearing tactics, yada, yada. The extra training makes us more comfortable with the weapon, but may not help with actual SD.
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Unabashed thread drift. What are people stating or implying by spelling California with a "K?" Especially those who voluntarily live there . . .
OP
Rastoff
US Veteran
Yes, I cut out the big list for brevity, but I agree with the sentiment here. My beliefs on the 2nd amendment are somewhat of a dichotomy though. First and foremost, there is no requirement to a right. If anyone wants to own/carry a gun, they have that right. There is no qualification on that whatsoever. Even so, a responsible adult will seek some kind of training and do some practice.
In the real world sometimes rights conflict. Your right to own a gun doesn't negate my right to liberty. Should a convicted violent felon retain their right to own a gun? What about someone who's insane? Do they lose their rights? Nothing is absolute.
This is where the rubber meets the road:
I'll take dangerous liberty over supposedly safe oppression every time.
Here's where rights conflict a little. Does the owner of an establishment or a home have the right to dictate how people conduct themselves on their property? I say yes. If you want real liberty, it has to be that way. So, it doesn't surprise me that a gun range would have limits on how we handle our guns.
Some get offended that a range wouldn't allow concealed carry. Alas, most of the time those rules are there not to remove liberty from the 1% goober, but to protect 99% of responsible people from them.
fredj338
Member
I hear this same BS all the time as to why people do not practice & train & raise their skill levels. You are confusing luck with skill. The reason most good guys win is not that they are better but that their opponent is even worse. So all good until you run up against well trained & skilled attackers. Think terrorists not tweekers.
Not boasting about anything, just giving a point of reference. Plenty of people can go to a flat range, 21ft & put every round into a pie plate, slow fire. Hell I can get a brand new shooter doing that in about 200rds. That does NOT make you ready for a dynamic gunfight, not by a country mile.
You can NOT refute the simple statistics of CCW qualifications. Seriously, 60rds @ 3, 5 & 7y, 70% to hit a huge B27 or B29 or what ever full size target that is used. Just hit it, standing still? I have seen people fail it, I have seen people barely hit the 70%. I have watched LEO quals where guys barely pass, a bit more difficult, but not a level of skill I would want LEO having. Consider the avg person, civ or LEO just does not practice. That is just fact. Do a poll, find out how many just on this forum, shoot every week or even every month. We are enthusiasts, the gen pop & gen LEO are not, fact.
IF this hurts your feelings, well I don't know what to say, man up maybe? Nothing I have said is insulting, just stating facts around the country. I am sure rural folks shoot more than city folks, but then most of the countries population is in those cities, again, just fact. So when I say avg gun owner or person carrying a gun has poor skills & little training, well again, just fact. How many shooters do you know that have had formal defensive pistol training? I shoot with 100 guys/gals every weekend. Even those shooters have had maybe 1-2 formal training classes, this includes LEO btw. So if semi serious competition shooters have that minimal training, how many gen pop gun owners have any??
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nachogrande
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fredj338
Member
Correct the state does no mandate but all the counties/municipalities do, if they issue permits at all.
fredj338
Member
Its a protest for those of us stuck here for what ever reason, generally financial. Voluntarily is a broad term, often tossed around by single people with no family or sometimes careers. I am 1-2y from retiring & it wont be here. The state used to be fine, only SanFran was the fruits & nuts. Today, every county that is not rural is a liberal craphole, but for Orange County. Why the state keeps drifting further left, too many parasites, govt & illegals & non working.
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fredj338
Member
NOW I'M IMPRESSED.
Again, it is not bragging or trying to impress anyone, just stating facts & disputing some that think I must shoot in a vacuum. A simple trip to any public indoor range verifies everything I have said about average shooter. I have never put a hole in the cealing in my entire 40y+ shooting.
I this and I that. It's gettin old Fred.
I've been shooting longer than you and I don't have all the facts. The facts as you see them doesn't make it true across the board. Blanket statements only show true ignorance.
The mom and daughter in Oklahoma are a bad example. They got really lucky. Their guns were right next to the register and they're lucky he didn't find them while he was emptying it.
Mom emptied her revolver into the robber and he was still in the fight enough to take the empty gun from her.
That fight was pure luck.
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More than I know that have formal defensive driving training to exercise the privilege of driving, and they drive a lot more than they use their constitutional right to shoot. There's also no formal voting training, arguably a more dangerous right . . .
nachogrande
Member
I DOUBT IT.
[QUOTE= I wouldn't shoot at a range that disallowed it.
If your options were their way or not shooting???? THEIR BALL, THEIR RULES.Not everyone has the options of wide open spaces & anything goes rules.
Ziggy2525
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I wasn’t commenting on the quality of the response. I was commenting on how common that type of response is and how often it’s successful. Luck isn’t a good strategy, but a determination to win and a little luck seems to trump skill most days.
How’d you come out with the softball size hail?
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SATX
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You, sir, have changed my opinion on mandated training and skill qualification. Well done.
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