Is the .380 enough?
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oldiegoldie
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is the .380 adequate?
short answer: yes
long answer: hell yes
short answer: yes
long answer: hell yes
Yes. The .380 will surely kill someone. But that's really not the main point. The real concern is, in most cases, will the .380 quickly and reliably incapacitate your assailant before he can incapacitate you? Baring a head shot, will a couple/few slugs from a .380 prevent a large armed man from finishing his attack on you? There have been recorded instances when 5, 158 gr. SWCHP .357 magnums to the center of mass, have not taken the fight out of a large assailant. (Often a matter of shot placement.) I carried an Astra Garcia .380 for a few years, back in the day. I figured it was compact and highly concealable and was much better than nothing. But I didn't know then, what I know now. Now, what I have come to understand is, it is shot placement and rapid blood loss that counts. The bigger the hole the more blood loss. And more more power = better bone penetration.
IMO, the .380 just doesn't pack the potatoes needed for reliable and consistent disabling of a large, hyped-up or intoxicated/druged-up assailant (or other worse case scenario). I believe the .380 has it's place -- especially if you are up close and can place your shots with precision. But for general personal defense, I'll take something bigger and hotter.
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A better comparison would be between the Sig 232 and the single-stack Beretta 85. I really like my Beretta 85 as my Sig tends to give me slide bite in a big way.
This is an excellent comparison between these two .380s by the late Stephen Camp (whose writings you should be familiar with if you aren't already):
hi-powers--handguns: SIG-Sauer P232 vs. Beretta Model 85 F Cheetah...
Lol. My other daughter, who also carries a 232, calls it "Sig Bite". A slight grip correction fixes that.
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Flyingfool
Member
Most self defense shooting occur within 10 FEET.
Exactly how much power and penetration is limited by 380 versus 9mm in the real world? Some would argue given the close distance most SD shootings occur, that OVER penetration is a concern and hitting innocent bystanders or other property damage as a result. And that assumes a hit. A clean miss will bring on a whole different level of risk of what is beyond the intended target.
Personally I carry 9mm. But I would have no issue with 380 or 38 special.
My concern with 380's is I have seen so many malfunctions with them. Mostly I think due to the small size of the pistol. The larger 380s seem to be more reliable, but at that point they are basically same size of reliable 9mm such as the shield 9mm.
Personally if I want to go small pocket gun. My choice will be a J-frame snubbie. 642, LCR or the like rather than the 380 semi auto.
Just my experience and my choice.
Exactly how much power and penetration is limited by 380 versus 9mm in the real world? Some would argue given the close distance most SD shootings occur, that OVER penetration is a concern and hitting innocent bystanders or other property damage as a result. And that assumes a hit. A clean miss will bring on a whole different level of risk of what is beyond the intended target.
Personally I carry 9mm. But I would have no issue with 380 or 38 special.
My concern with 380's is I have seen so many malfunctions with them. Mostly I think due to the small size of the pistol. The larger 380s seem to be more reliable, but at that point they are basically same size of reliable 9mm such as the shield 9mm.
Personally if I want to go small pocket gun. My choice will be a J-frame snubbie. 642, LCR or the like rather than the 380 semi auto.
Just my experience and my choice.
Just discovered this thread and it's filled with interesting comments. Hope mine's interesting too!
Last summer I served on a jury in a city in Central Texas with a population in excess of one million people. Third time called, first time selected to serve, it was an education and a half and left me with an even deeper appreciation for law enforcement professionals. The charge against the defendant was capital murder as the victim was shot, and killed, during a robbery.
The victim was shot once as he was getting up off a couch and the bullet entered on an angle as if he was shot from above. The projectile broke the third rib from the top upon entry and then traveled on a more-or-less straight path through the entirety of the left lung coming to rest near the lower lumbar area. The victim, a male well over six feet tall and over two hundred pounds, fell, lost consciousness, and died on the way to the emergency room.
When they passed the empty cartridge case around the jury box, the only one recovered from the crime scene, it was a Remington nickel-plated .380 and I assume it may have been a Golden Sabre but the bullet was not further identified in court. The firearm was not recovered and was alleged to have been disposed of in a nearby lake. The only thing that was certain was that this large, young, man was killed by a single shot with a .380 and at that point I ceased any temptation to think the .380 wasn't adequate for defensive tasks. And by the way; I don't own one.
Last summer I served on a jury in a city in Central Texas with a population in excess of one million people. Third time called, first time selected to serve, it was an education and a half and left me with an even deeper appreciation for law enforcement professionals. The charge against the defendant was capital murder as the victim was shot, and killed, during a robbery.
The victim was shot once as he was getting up off a couch and the bullet entered on an angle as if he was shot from above. The projectile broke the third rib from the top upon entry and then traveled on a more-or-less straight path through the entirety of the left lung coming to rest near the lower lumbar area. The victim, a male well over six feet tall and over two hundred pounds, fell, lost consciousness, and died on the way to the emergency room.
When they passed the empty cartridge case around the jury box, the only one recovered from the crime scene, it was a Remington nickel-plated .380 and I assume it may have been a Golden Sabre but the bullet was not further identified in court. The firearm was not recovered and was alleged to have been disposed of in a nearby lake. The only thing that was certain was that this large, young, man was killed by a single shot with a .380 and at that point I ceased any temptation to think the .380 wasn't adequate for defensive tasks. And by the way; I don't own one.
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Echo40
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For all the talk of these illusive drug addicts who can't feel pain, don't experience fear, and supposedly cannot be stopped by .380 ACP, you have to stop and wonder just how it was that warriors from centuries past who not only were under the influence of powerful hallucinogenic substances but motivated by strong convictions were felled by mere arrows?
Heck, how anybody was ever successfully killed with crude bows and arrows seems to completely defy the assertions that effective firearms must be semiautomatic, high capacity, have high contrast sights, and must be chambered in a cartridge capable of launching a projectile at supersonic speed which expands in diameter on impact and delivers hundreds of foot-pounds of Kinect energy.
Seriously, has anyone ever chronographed arrows fired from a crude bow? I would be curious to know just how much velocity/ft-lbs an arrow fired from an old-fashioned bow is capable of, because I doubt that it would measure up well to that of the common handgun cartridges of today, yet somehow managed to be deadly, even against the most motivated/inebriated, highly-trained, heavily armored, and muscular warriors of old. Meanwhile we question/argue whether modern firearms cartridges are capable of dealing with emaciated meth-heads whose only motivation is to get their next fix and probably aren't trained in any form of combat.
Heck, how anybody was ever successfully killed with crude bows and arrows seems to completely defy the assertions that effective firearms must be semiautomatic, high capacity, have high contrast sights, and must be chambered in a cartridge capable of launching a projectile at supersonic speed which expands in diameter on impact and delivers hundreds of foot-pounds of Kinect energy.
Seriously, has anyone ever chronographed arrows fired from a crude bow? I would be curious to know just how much velocity/ft-lbs an arrow fired from an old-fashioned bow is capable of, because I doubt that it would measure up well to that of the common handgun cartridges of today, yet somehow managed to be deadly, even against the most motivated/inebriated, highly-trained, heavily armored, and muscular warriors of old. Meanwhile we question/argue whether modern firearms cartridges are capable of dealing with emaciated meth-heads whose only motivation is to get their next fix and probably aren't trained in any form of combat.
I have no interest in continuing this "debate?". But DHC, I gotta say, that post was irrelevant. I wouldn't even know where to start.
TomkinsSP
Member
Dirty Harry Callahan,
I tip my hat to your resourcefulness sir. Once we are done with the pointless .380 ACP/ 9 Parabellum debate we can discuss the merits and the inadequacies of French Crossbows and Welsh Longbows...
I tip my hat to your resourcefulness sir. Once we are done with the pointless .380 ACP/ 9 Parabellum debate we can discuss the merits and the inadequacies of French Crossbows and Welsh Longbows...
TomkinsSP
Member
Oink,
I have four sons, they taught me that the debate IS the point, and the reason for the debate is ALWAYS is irrelevant.
I have four sons, they taught me that the debate IS the point, and the reason for the debate is ALWAYS is irrelevant.
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This is just contradiction!
I paid for an argument!
I paid for an argument!
TomkinsSP
Member
"Inspector Thompson's Gazelle of the Yard, you are under arrest for being overly self referential, always saying 'of the Yard', and for repeatedly getting out of sketches without a punch-line by having everyone arrested."
Horn
Member
EZ 380 Enough With Proper Ammo
They put a longer barrel on it than other 380 pistols. Now, she practices with regular FMJ ammo. I know the pistol is not rated and in fact S&W cautions against using +P. However, for SD purposes it's loaded with Underwoods (Underwood loads their ammo hot) 380 ACP +P 65 gr Xtreme Defender rounds. (1400 spf) These rounds use the Lehigh solid brass "fluted" bullet. I suggest those who don't know about this bullet....check it out.
Since S&W seems to really state, "No +P" I'm sure they mean it.
But should the occasion arise...five or more into mass isn't apt to
cause a problem for the pistol. The problem is what's in front of it.
Stay safe
Poli Viejo
My wife has the EZ380. S&W did a lot of research and the result is the 380 EZ. She can operate it "EZ". Great hand feel and balance.
They put a longer barrel on it than other 380 pistols. Now, she practices with regular FMJ ammo. I know the pistol is not rated and in fact S&W cautions against using +P. However, for SD purposes it's loaded with Underwoods (Underwood loads their ammo hot) 380 ACP +P 65 gr Xtreme Defender rounds. (1400 spf) These rounds use the Lehigh solid brass "fluted" bullet. I suggest those who don't know about this bullet....check it out.
Since S&W seems to really state, "No +P" I'm sure they mean it.
But should the occasion arise...five or more into mass isn't apt to
cause a problem for the pistol. The problem is what's in front of it.
Stay safe
Poli Viejo
Please feel free to rely on whatever type of weapon you'd like. Arrows, clubs, brass knuckles, pepper spray - what have you.
joeintexas
US Veteran
I agree but wanted to caution that unless you have tested your gun with these rounds to ensure it will work (.380 auto loaders can be ammo sensitive) you may be asking for trouble. I always run at least 50 rounds of carry ammo through my EDC.
Echo40
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Some would say that Crossbows are OBVIOUSLY superior because they are more technologically advanced, but in reality they're far less reliable than a good old-fashioned Bow.
Pfft... All children's toys... Real men carry swords! Anything less than a Claymore is completely incapable of getting through the thick hide of a Viking Berserker.
But seriously, I carry a Stiletto and don't feel underarmed, although on a cold day I'll pack a Gladius.
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Al W.
Member
I started my shooting hobby up a couple of years ago after a long while.
Always had paid attention to this sort of debate over the years but didn't intend to CC so it wasn't a practical matter.
However I did keep a firearm for home protection and also kept a pistol at my place of business.
Over the last several years I've collected a few guns that interested me and several of them are in .380 cal.
Its a great round.
Mine have a barrel length of between 2"and 3.75".
I practice with them.
2 are mil. surp. and the other is a modern pocket gun.
I'm on paper at 25 yards and at closer distances in 6 rapid fired rounds, its center mass all the way.
Took a CCW qualification class the other day and the instructor hadn't seen a CZ83 before . I can squeeze 14 rounds into that thing 13 +1 and the instructor wasn't poo poo ing it after he saw what it could do.
From my point of view thinking a .380 can't be accurate or lethal is kinda silly.
Not to insult anyones opinion and respect to all concerned.
I would rather be carrying my CZ 83 than the pocket gun, but I can carry that pocket gun anywhere, where as a larger pistol has serious concealment limitations.
One thing brought home by my CC class is that anytime you resort to deploying a fire arm your on the precipice of legal problems that could continue for a very long time .
So safety first !
Always had paid attention to this sort of debate over the years but didn't intend to CC so it wasn't a practical matter.
However I did keep a firearm for home protection and also kept a pistol at my place of business.
Over the last several years I've collected a few guns that interested me and several of them are in .380 cal.
Its a great round.
Mine have a barrel length of between 2"and 3.75".
I practice with them.
2 are mil. surp. and the other is a modern pocket gun.
I'm on paper at 25 yards and at closer distances in 6 rapid fired rounds, its center mass all the way.
Took a CCW qualification class the other day and the instructor hadn't seen a CZ83 before . I can squeeze 14 rounds into that thing 13 +1 and the instructor wasn't poo poo ing it after he saw what it could do.
From my point of view thinking a .380 can't be accurate or lethal is kinda silly.
Not to insult anyones opinion and respect to all concerned.
I would rather be carrying my CZ 83 than the pocket gun, but I can carry that pocket gun anywhere, where as a larger pistol has serious concealment limitations.
One thing brought home by my CC class is that anytime you resort to deploying a fire arm your on the precipice of legal problems that could continue for a very long time .
So safety first !
nipperdog
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