Elmer Keith?

[dogdoc]

I have shot my 29-2 a good bit with normal 44 magnum 250 grain loads and it is fine. They are not near as delicate as many imply. We can't take them with us anyway. Have fun trying to wear one out! Our heirs probabaly wont give a damn about them or will be anti gun anyway. I know , I am cynical!

 

[oink]

I bought my 6" 629-1 new in 86 or 87 as a duty gun. Being aware of the increased recoil and recovery time with 44 Mag I set about acclimating myself to 44 mag and ran thousands of hot loads through it. I don't recall the recipe off hand but I was using my cast wheelweight 240 GR Lee gas checked SWC. I put a pile of them through it over many years along with the duty rounds during qualifications. There was also a bazillion of powder puff loads using a similar lee mold sans gas check along with a heavier Lyman Keith SWC. The lee bullets didn't lead as badly and I assume it's because it has more grease grooves so that mold got used more. OK, OK, yes it does now suffer a bit from the classic problems associated with the model. However, it didn't happen overnight. It earned those issues. Don't be afraid to use those older models. They are good strong guns and few are going to give them the workout I did.

 

[silentflyer]

"very interesting reading and will dispell a lot of myth , rumor and lies you hear about Elmer Keith ."

Falsehoods by people who,hunt,fish and shoot firearms? No..never.....

 

[grice]

I bought my 6" 629-1 new in 86 or 87 as a duty gun. Being aware of the increased recoil and recovery time with 44 Mag I set about acclimating myself to 44 mag and ran thousands of hot loads through it. I don't recall the recipe off hand but I was using my cast wheelweight 240 GR Lee gas checked SWC. I put a pile of them through it over many years along with the duty rounds during qualifications. There was also a bazillion of powder puff loads using a similar lee mold sans gas check along with a heavier Lyman Keith SWC. The lee bullets didn't lead as badly and I assume it's because it has more grease grooves so that mold got used more. OK, OK, yes it does now suffer a bit from the classic problems associated with the model. However, it didn't happen overnight. It earned those issues. Don't be afraid to use those older models. They are good strong guns and few are going to give them the workout I did.

I agree with you, I remember in the early 70s I had read an article I believe was in shooting times at the time but don't remember the two authors but the title was something like 44 magnum or 45 colt which is best. At the time I had a smith 29-2 then bought a ruger super Blackhawk and a Blackhawk in 45 colt as I was in my 20s fresh back from nam and thinking I needed more power . Then a short time later I read Elmer's article in guns n ammo which he stated clearly to try 22 or 23 grains of 2400 for any of the mentioned guns . The smith and both rugers both 44 mag and 46 colt using 240 and 250 grain bullets. Well I tried the whole 23 grains in the smith and the rugers and shot lots of them , not thousands like someone else mentioned this was before shooting steel became popular. But I'd venture to say I shot close to a thousand back then in every gun and of course the rugers weren't phased in the least but neither was my 29 which I still shoot today. Now I don't shoot those loads anymore but I think that smith is every bit the gun as my two rugers and I' don't ever plan on parting with it.

 

[Echo40]

*sighs*

No, Elmer Keith did not "enjoy blowing guns up" nor was he the masochistic recoil junkie that folks imply that he was.

In reality, Elmer Keith was a hunter who enjoyed doing so with handguns, which at the time typically weren't powerful enough to reliably/humanely kill big/dangerous game in North America, ergo Keith sought to produce more powerful loads which could get the job done, so he made use of former Black Powder Cartridges such as the .38 Special, .45 Long Colt, and the .44 Special due to their higher powder capacity, and unfortunately he had a few mishaps in which his cartridges were loaded a bit too hot or made use of bullets a bit too large in diameter, thus resulting in catastrophic failure of the firearms he tested them in. (Namely one very specific occurrence in which he caused a split cylinder on a Colt SAA .45 in which he had topped off a hot .45LC cartridge with a .45-70 bullet, which is larger in diameter than .45LC, thus resulting in an unsafe pressure spike which in turn compromised the structural integrity of the cylinder.)
Furthermore, commercially available .44 Magnum loads are actually loaded hotter than Elmer Keith's original specifications called for, so if anything, modern (post Performance Package) iterations of the Model 29 are actually overbuilt for Keith's .44 Magnum loads.

In addition, it's worth mentioning that many .38 Special, .44 Special, and .45 Long Colt loads at the time of Keith's experimentation were downloaded out of concern for older (19th Century) firearms with wrought iron frames, whereas nowadays all of said cartridges are generally loaded hotter with specialty "Cowboy Action Shooting Loads" and appropriate Black Powder loads for antique firearms and their replicas.

 

[derek45auto]

Keith knew what he was doing.

 

[white cloud]

I think that is a fantastic bullet design. I have shot a bunch of them. That is the true beauty of a .44. 240 grains cruising along at 1100 FPS is nothing to sneeze at IMHO.

 

[mm93]

Let's not forget Elmer's 265yd shot with the m29/4" barrel too hicock45 did the same shot.

I can't help but chuckle a little at people making a huge deal of a 265 yd. hit with a handgun. It's really not that hard to do with a little practice, and I've seen and done almost twice that distance.
We have a long range fun shoot every summer for old single shot and lever action rifles. But everyone brings a handgun or two and at some point it turns into a long range handgun shoot.
We have targets out to 1,000 yds. for rifles, but also have targets at 500, 450, 300, and 150 yds. I don't see many of the guys there that can't hit 150 yds. consistently. And 300 yds. doesn't seem to produce many misses either. 450 yds. begins to test the shooter, and hits are about 40%-50% of the shots fired. This summer I used my S&W Model 59 with 9mm ball ammo to make hits on the 450 yd. dinger, and was surprised at how well the 59 worked.
Everyone should try long distance dingers with a handgun at some time. It makes you appreciate, and believe Elmer's writings about taking long distance shots. Plus it's just plain fun.

 

[one eye joe]

I can't help but chuckle a little at people making a huge deal of a 265 yd. hit with a handgun. It's really not that hard to do with a little practice, and I've seen and done almost twice that distance.
We have a long range fun shoot every summer for old single shot and lever action rifles. But everyone brings a handgun or two and at some point it turns into a long range handgun shoot.
We have targets out to 1,000 yds. for rifles, but also have targets at 500, 450, 300, and 150 yds. I don't see many of the guys there that can't hit 150 yds. consistently. And 300 yds. doesn't seem to produce many misses either. 450 yds. begins to test the shooter, and hits are about 40%-50% of the shots fired. This summer I used my S&W Model 59 with 9mm ball ammo to make hits on the 450 yd. dinger, and was surprised at how well the 59 worked.
Everyone should try long distance dingers with a handgun at some time. It makes you appreciate, and believe Elmer's writings about taking long distance shots. Plus it's just plain fun.

A SEARCH OF YOUTUBE WILL YIELD A HANDFUL OF INSPIRATIONAL VIDEOS SHOWING FAMED PISTOLERO, JERRY MICULEK , MAKING AMAZING SHOTS---INCLUDING A RECORD 1,000 YARD HIT, USING A S&W M929.....

ITS SAFE TO SAY THAT NONE OF US CAN SHOOT LIKE JERRY, BUT IMHO--WE CAN ALL HAVE SOME FUN, BY TRYING SOMETHING DIFFERENT......

 

[diyj98]

I can't help but chuckle a little at people making a huge deal of a 265 yd. hit with a handgun. It's really not that hard to do with a little practice, and I've seen and done almost twice that distance.

With a known distance, a huge target, and lots of practice or luck it's not that hard to do. On a live animal without an exact know distance out in the field, it's a bit of luck or a bit of truth stretching as Elmer was prone to do. If he was truly taking all those long ranges, he's wounded a lot of game.

 

[mm93]

With a known distance, a huge target, and lots of practice or luck it's not that hard to do. On a live animal without an exact know distance out in the field, it's a bit of luck or a bit of truth stretching as Elmer was prone to do. If he was truly taking all those long ranges, he's wounded a lot of game.

I would never consider taking game with my handgun at anything over 100 yds. And even at 100 yds. I've spent many days at the range practicing prior to hunting season.
Long range shooting is a fun thing for me, and done on targets, not game.
I've read enough Elmer Keith writings, and own a few of his books. I respect his load work done to help develop calibers that were later introduced. But his shots taken at game have not lead me to be a fan of that style of shooting. Not sure he didn't wound animals, or take many careless shots at animals. But he was a fun writer to read.

 

[Echo40]

I can't help but chuckle a little at people making a huge deal of a 265 yd. hit with a handgun. It's really not that hard to do with a little practice, and I've seen and done almost twice that distance.
We have a long range fun shoot every summer for old single shot and lever action rifles. But everyone brings a handgun or two and at some point it turns into a long range handgun shoot.
We have targets out to 1,000 yds. for rifles, but also have targets at 500, 450, 300, and 150 yds. I don't see many of the guys there that can't hit 150 yds. consistently. And 300 yds. doesn't seem to produce many misses either. 450 yds. begins to test the shooter, and hits are about 40%-50% of the shots fired. This summer I used my S&W Model 59 with 9mm ball ammo to make hits on the 450 yd. dinger, and was surprised at how well the 59 worked.
Everyone should try long distance dingers with a handgun at some time. It makes you appreciate, and believe Elmer's writings about taking long distance shots. Plus it's just plain fun.

How many of said hits were scored using a .44 Magnum?

Context is everything, it's not so much that he scored a 265 yard hit with a handgun, but with a S&W Model 29 firing a 240gr bullet clocked at around 1100fps.That's a heavyweight bullet with some fairly stought recoil traveling at an intermediate velocity and striking a target 265 yards away. The heavier the bullet and the lower the velocity, the more the bullet drops at a distance, ergo a 240gr bullet doing 1100fps is going to drop a lot faster, requiring more compensation than a lighter weight bullet clocked at the same speed or higher.

Scoring the same hit at similar or even longer distances with a 115gr bullet traveling at 1100fps+ isn't the same thing at all.