With rising anmo cost, is there also a rising case for using reloads as SD ammo?

[fredj338]

I am going to take a guess that most people who have used deadly force successfully are not members of gun forums, and do not discuss shooting people. Yet they still did what they needed to do. Gun forum members are a very small segment of people who carry a gun legally, or have a firearm in the home for self defense.

Well sure but what is your point? I am only stating the obvious & disagreeing with your other statement that anyone who has ever thought about shooting someone should be "red flagged". Every LEO cadet is put through such thought provoking things prior to graduating because it matters. Gun forums has nothing to do with it.

 

[Walkingwolf]

Well sure but what is your point? I am only stating the obvious & disagreeing with your other statement that anyone who has ever thought about shooting someone should be "red flagged". Every LEO cadet is put through such thought provoking things prior to graduating because it matters. Gun forums has nothing to do with it.

Most of the mass shooters have had a history of violent tendencies, urges, postings, social encounters. We are not talking about police training. We are talking on social media, about events that are unlikely to happen to responsible law abiding citizens. What a citizen carries is none of my business, and it is none of yours. But it is disturbing that a very small segment in the gun community is so focused on shooting people. The baloney about prosecution for handloads is BS, the stats just are not there as well as the stats of likely being in a shootout. What is there is clear evidence that those who have been in unlawful shootings have a history of abnormal behavior whether online or in person. This is true of Dylon Roof, Cruz, and so many others. Even the handicap shooter has a history behind him that will not help him, but no mention if any of them what kind of ammo they used. Online posting history is admissible in court.

 

[ChuckS1]

Okay, maybe I missed this in the discussion, but how is anyone, other than you, going to know your ammo was reloaded?

 

[Walkingwolf]

Okay, maybe I missed this in the discussion, but how is anyone, other than you, going to know your ammo was reloaded?

Not sure, but dies probably leave striations that could be seen under microscope. On a questionable shooting there also probably would be a search warrant.

 

[Forrest r]

It comes down to the political climate in the area you live in & more pointedly the prosecutor's political agenda. In my little neck of the woods the judges wouldn't allow such bs.

The county judges came out in 2015 making statements to the press telling the citizens of the county that the jails are so over crowded they can't even put violent criminals in lockup. That the le agencies can not protect them and that the citizens should arm themselves.

For some odd reason the crime rate dropped 36+% from 2015 to 2016.

Perhaps it time that the prosecutors that brought on these types of cases had their day in civil court along with the lawyers that take these types of cases to civil court.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Okay, maybe I missed this in the discussion, but how is anyone, other than you, going to know your ammo was reloaded?

Because when the case is compared to the spent bullet, it almost certainly won't match any commercially loaded ammunition (other people besides forum members like to keep track of stuff like that). And then there will be some questions. Because the cops will want to make sure that the bad guy was shot by you, and wasn't shot from the grassy knoll . . .

 

[ChuckS1]

Because when the case is compared to the spent bullet, it almost certainly won't match any commercially loaded ammunition (other people besides forum members like to keep track of stuff like that). And then there will be some questions. Because the cops will want to make sure that the bad guy was shot by you, and wasn't shot from the grassy knoll . . .

I don't know. If you're reloading range brass, for example, it's all commercial cases. As for the bullet, unless you're using some oddball cast or swaged lead bullets, I can't see that any one could tell the difference between a commercially-loaded 230 grain FMJ and the 230 grain FMJ I hand loaded into a Remington case.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Duly noted . . .

I don't know. If you're reloading range brass, for example, it's all commercial cases. As for the bullet, unless you're using some oddball cast or swaged lead bullets, I can't see that any one could tell the difference between a commercially-loaded 230 grain FMJ and the 230 grain FMJ I hand loaded into a Remington case.

 

[fredj338]

Most of the mass shooters have had a history of violent tendencies, urges, postings, social encounters. We are not talking about police training. We are talking on social media, about events that are unlikely to happen to responsible law abiding citizens. What a citizen carries is none of my business, and it is none of yours. But it is disturbing that a very small segment in the gun community is so focused on shooting people. The baloney about prosecution for handloads is BS, the stats just are not there as well as the stats of likely being in a shootout. What is there is clear evidence that those who have been in unlawful shootings have a history of abnormal behavior whether online or in person. This is true of Dylon Roof, Cruz, and so many others. Even the handicap shooter has a history behind him that will not help him, but no mention if any of them what kind of ammo they used. Online posting history is admissible in court.

A far cry from your original statement;
"IMO people who think a lot about shooting people whether self defense or not, might fall under red flag laws".
Trying to determine best ammo or best gun on a gun forum is not the above.

 

[fredj338]

Okay, maybe I missed this in the discussion, but how is anyone, other than you, going to know your ammo was reloaded?

Well it would depend on the ammo. If your super duper handload is a non standard bullet oddball powder, mixed cases in your gun, any decent investigator is going to question the ammo, if it matters.

 

[BC38]

....The baloney about prosecution for handloads is BS, the stats just are not there....

True, and nobody is saying that handloads will be the CAUSE of your prosecution in a SD trial.
HOWEVER, there is plenty of evidence that if you ARE prosecuted, handloads can be used against you, Even if they prosecution isn't successful at using handloads to make you look guilty, you're still going to spend a lot of money for your lawyer to prove it wasn't a factor.
Why take the risk. Practice with your handloads and carry commercial SD ammo. Shoot the commercial stuff sparingly - only enough to keep reasonably fresh ammo to carry. The cost for the few commercial rounds isn't going to break anybody. You need to shoot a little of it to confirm how it works in your gun anyway.

 

[Walkingwolf]

True, and nobody is saying that handloads will be the CAUSE of your prosecution in a SD trial.
HOWEVER, there is plenty of evidence that if you ARE prosecuted, handloads can be used against you, Even if they prosecution isn't successful at using handloads to make you look guilty, you're still going to spend a lot of money for your lawyer to prove it wasn't a factor.
Why take the risk. Practice with your handloads and carry commercial SD ammo. Shoot the commercial stuff sparingly - only enough to keep reasonably fresh ammo to carry. The cost for the few commercial rounds isn't going to break anybody. You need to shoot a little of it to confirm how it works in your gun anyway.

I have seen NO evidence that handloads will be used against me. Why take the risk, there is no risk, and I get the added benefit of annoying the MA bible reading ninjas that can't bear the thought of those that do not follow the mob.

 

[Wise_A]

Because you're asking for "case law" and "statistics", which is nonsensical.

 

[Bakebfr480]

All I use/shoot are my own handloads!

 

[Walkingwolf]

You are ignoring the cases cited, for example, by Massad Ayoob.

You are simply wrong that "there is no risk." Ignore the risks at your own peril. Fortunately, I am not bound by your erroneous opinions.

I think that you are a troll, Walkingwolf.

You think because someone does not follow a cult they are troll? Think what you want, I don't care. I live my life on my own terms, not yours. And defiantly not on Massad Ayoob terms.

 

[BC38]

You think because someone does not follow a cult they are troll? Think what you want, I don't care. I live my life on my own terms, not yours. And defiantly not on Massad Ayoob terms.

Defiantly, huh? Did you mean definitely? Was that intentional - or a Freudian slip?

Anyway, many of us are familiar with Massad Ayoob's credentials, how about some of you guys who seem to want to discount him post up YOUR OWN credentials so we can judge your credibility vs his for ourselves?

I'm not a "MA bible reading ninja", but when I read things I do consider the source - including things I have read that the individual has to say. Mass's bona fides seem pretty legit, as do the things I've read that he has written.

I can't say the same for his critics, so if you're one, post up your own qualifications so we know where you're coming from. Mass has already listed some of his....

 

[nachogrande]

SD AMMO

A particular factory bullet would not be hard to duplicate. Finding your press & reloading gear would not be hard when your house is searched, which I assume would be likely in a shooting investigation. Bottom line is how a jury is influenced to vote. The "truth" is what you can prove/convince the jury it is. There's guilty & NOT GUILTY! Nobody is found innocent & often not guilty means to many, you got away with it THIS TIME. I have no illusions that there are not, guilty people walking free, & not guilty people behind bars. I'd be more concerned (after the fact) about proving S/D was called for VS what ammo was used, but you never know. Above my pay grade, that's what lawyers are for. Innocent until proven broke is a distinct possibility.

 

[Walkingwolf]

Defiantly, huh? Did you mean definitely? Was that intentional - or a Freudian slip?

Anyway, many of us are familiar with Massad Ayoob's credentials, how about some of you guys who seem to want to discount him post up YOUR OWN credentials so we can judge your credibility vs his for ourselves?

I'm not a "MA bible reading ninja", but when I read things I do consider the source - including things I have read that the individual has to say. Mass's bona fides seem pretty legit, as do the things I've read that he has written.

I can't say the same for his critics, so if you're one, post up your own qualifications so we know where you're coming from. Mass has already listed some of his....

United States Law Abiding Citizen with free will, and a mind of my own.

 

[scottyp99]

A bit of a false equivalency. Plenty of people cook their own food. It's fairly universal. Gun ownership, CCW, and handloading are not.

Asking your lawyer to explain why you loaded your own ammunition is asking him to do one more thing. For one thing, he's going to have to spend time defending your decision, and his time is your money.

For another, you're trying to convince a jury that your actions were necessary. Every additional thing you ask your lawyer to convince the jury of decreases your chance of getting that first one across.

False equivalency? Not many people build little ships in bottles, but does that mean they should be persecuted for doing so? Of course not! How popular an activity is shouldn't have any impact on equivalency.

However.....your last two point sort of render that whole can of worms moot. They make a lot of sense as argument against carrying reloads, and have given me a good reason to carry factory ammo.

Now then.....could there be any possible downside to carrying a boutique brand like Buffalo Bore?

Scotty

 

[gregintenn]

I've never been prosecuted for shooting a deer with handloaded ammunition.


Way back before the internet and the advent of the metallic cartridge, everyone handloaded. I guess there was a shortage of lawyers then.