Had my annual qualification today. Decided to shoot my Model 13. Small group of three guys. First round of fire in FL consists of up close, double taps. The two other guys with auto pistols had malfunctions. The Instructor, who is a good one, attributes it to limp wristing while firing with one hand. Even though my Model 13 was labeled as an old timer, wheel gun; I had no malfunctions and a perfect score. Good day at the range!
LEOSA Qualification and a Model 13
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MetalMan
Member
Stories like this just make me smile.......
Nice job!
Nice job!
MODEL 13
REAL COPS CARRY REVOLVERS
REAL COPS CARRY REVOLVERS
A model 13 was my last issued revolver. It was one of the best carry guns I ever had. It had the round butt target (banana) grips which are extremely comfortable. Luckily I was able to buy it when we switched weapons.
Perfection
During our final revolver days before transitioning to autoloaders, I was issued a Model 10, 3" round-butt which is identical to the Model 13 except that it was chambered for .38 SPL only. It's a great gun and I own a Model 65 3" RB. This is the gun (be it a Model 10, 13 or 65) I most recommend to anyone seeking a home-defense, carry gun. It falls in the middle of "too much" and "not enough."
During our final revolver days before transitioning to autoloaders, I was issued a Model 10, 3" round-butt which is identical to the Model 13 except that it was chambered for .38 SPL only. It's a great gun and I own a Model 65 3" RB. This is the gun (be it a Model 10, 13 or 65) I most recommend to anyone seeking a home-defense, carry gun. It falls in the middle of "too much" and "not enough."
OIF2
Member
I carried my M10-8 3" as an off-duty gun long after I had an auto on-duty. Still have it.
Bob
Bob
31FordA
Member
It's hard to beat a 3" K frame. I qualified with my 3" 65-3 a few months ago, shot a perfect score. The 3" K frame is probably the ideal concealed carry service revolver.
Old Corp
Member
Also just did my HR218/LEOSA quals.
Mainly do it as the last Security Contracting gig I did mandated it.
Here in NC, the issued card identifies the guns authorized, up to four. Strangely, not by S/N, just make and model.
So, with 'work guns' in mind, I used my S&W M&P .45 ACP midsize, a Glock 19 9mm, and a S&W M65 3".
This was the first time I'd shot the course on an indoor range, which was nice because weather was terrible.
But when we shot the 'night/low-light' portion and the lights went out - wow, like being in a closed closet with NO light! (and forgot my flashlight)
Still, pretty easy, shot a mix of 100's and high 90's.
And always enjoy shooting that M65 more than about any auto.
Mainly do it as the last Security Contracting gig I did mandated it.
Here in NC, the issued card identifies the guns authorized, up to four. Strangely, not by S/N, just make and model.
So, with 'work guns' in mind, I used my S&W M&P .45 ACP midsize, a Glock 19 9mm, and a S&W M65 3".
This was the first time I'd shot the course on an indoor range, which was nice because weather was terrible.
But when we shot the 'night/low-light' portion and the lights went out - wow, like being in a closed closet with NO light! (and forgot my flashlight)
Still, pretty easy, shot a mix of 100's and high 90's.
And always enjoy shooting that M65 more than about any auto.
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Abbynormal
Member
Old age and treachery usually wins!
JWM
Member
Last week I did my third LEOSA qual since retiring in 2016. The first couple of years I only qual with one gun (Glock 17), but this year decided to toss my five shot model 60 in the mix. Here in South Carolina there is no state wide LEOSA guidelines, so individual police/sheriffs departments can decide on their own what type of course of fire to run. Much to my surprise, I max out on the local off duty course with the J frame.
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snowman.45
Member
Currently, my Department requires we qualify with each gun we'll carry, so I do a mix of revolvers and autos. It will soon be changed to the national LEOSA standard of one auto and one revolver, if you want to carry either/or. Further, I'm moving to Arizona in February/March when our new house is completed. There, they only require one auto and one revolver, so that will be what I'll do.
I have a 3" 66 and a new 2.75" 66, but I hope to find a 3" 65 for daily carry.
I have a 3" 66 and a new 2.75" 66, but I hope to find a 3" 65 for daily carry.
I don't recall seeing that in the law. Could you show it to all us old LEOs?
National LEOSA standard? Never heard of it.
I'm down here in the AZ, moved here after retiring in 2014 from Colorado. I've done 3 annual quals down here and I think you might be confused a bit.
AZ does require qualification with both types of handgun if you wish to be covered for both, or either one if that's your desire. They give you a credit-card style "Qualification Card" when you submit the paperwork and $20 to DPS since AZ doesn't require a permit to carry. The course is the state POST-approved course, 50 rounds at different distances for each gun and a "judgement shooting" 10-round section with either, where you shoot the target with the armed guy in the simpler version of the test, or do a few scenarios on a simulator.
Several departments out here will accommodate retirees from other jurisdictions or states, you just need to call around and ask. There are also several ranges in the Phoenix area that have state-approved private instructors available to administer the course and sign your form. I went to one last year, mostly for convenience. Worked out great. And they also keep a list of all approved instructors that will do LEOSA quals on their website with contact info, so you should have no problem getting together with one for your qual.
Now this is REALLY IMPORTANT: AZ requires a notarized letter on department letterhead stating you are a retiree in good standing. They keep it on file, so get two of those if you think you'll need one for something else. You submit it with your first year's form; no need to send every year.
There's more information, a downloadable copy of the application form and a sample letter of what they want from your old department on this site: Concealed Weapons and Permits | Arizona Department of Public Safety
and click on the LEOSA tab under Menu.
That about covers it. I wouldn't want you to come down here without the right info, so I hope this helps. Oh, and let us know what part of AZ you're coming to. Happy Retirement!
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Yeah, the Florida FDLE course of fire is pretty easy. We have to qualify with the type of gun we carry, so I qualify with a revolver and a semi-auto. Last time I qualified with a Glock model 40 and a S&W model 69.
snowman.45
Member
From my understanding of the Federal statute, it states you must qualify with a firearm similar in function to what you intend to carry. There is no specification for each make or model in the statute. Therefore, if you qualify with a revolver, you are good to carry revolvers; if you qualify with a semi-auto, you are certified to carry semi-autos. I realize this varies from state to state, as each has its own interpretation. Perhaps "standard" was a poor choice of words.
GerSan 69; yes, I'm aware of the Arizona requirements and will have the required documents in hand when I get moved. Thanks for the links. I'm very much looking forward to getting there and out of the PRK.
Miley Gil; I'll see if I can't look up the exact wording or the LEOSA statute. Don't quote me on it, but I've read it and the "qualification with a similar firearms" portion is what sticks out. I know we've had a lot of conversation around here because of my department's policy of qualifying with each make and model to be carried being in opposition to the Federal statute as it is understood by the neighboring agencies (including CHP). That policy is currently in the process of being modified to reflect that of the LEOSA. Let me see what I can find on the exact wording.
GerSan 69; yes, I'm aware of the Arizona requirements and will have the required documents in hand when I get moved. Thanks for the links. I'm very much looking forward to getting there and out of the PRK.
Miley Gil; I'll see if I can't look up the exact wording or the LEOSA statute. Don't quote me on it, but I've read it and the "qualification with a similar firearms" portion is what sticks out. I know we've had a lot of conversation around here because of my department's policy of qualifying with each make and model to be carried being in opposition to the Federal statute as it is understood by the neighboring agencies (including CHP). That policy is currently in the process of being modified to reflect that of the LEOSA. Let me see what I can find on the exact wording.
snowman.45
Member
I'm still looking for a document containing the verbiage I saw, but I ran across an article in Police Magazine. It comes up on a Google search under "UNDERSTANDING THE LEOSA QUALIFICATION PROCESS" that explains the statue and required qualification processes. This is an excerpt from it:Qualification
LEOSA requires that retired officers have proof they have qualified within the last year with the same "type" of firearm. "Type" is not defined in the LEOSA law; however, if you look up the definition in the same code section, it is defined as handgun, rifle, or shotgun.
Nowhere in the law does it say handgun, pistol, or revolver. It only says "firearm." This indicates that under LEOSA you can carry a firearm—not restricted to a handgun—of the same type you qualified with.
And:
The law does not require that you carry the same firearm you qualified with, so do not make record of what the officer qualified with. The officer could qualify with a revolver and carry a semi-automatic, as it is the same "type" (a handgun) of firearm. If an officer is not carrying the gun he or she qualified with there is nothing you can do. The officer doesn't work for you anymore.
Think of the qualification card as a driver's license. The license doesn't restrict you to driving only the vehicle you drove during the test. It permits you to operate any vehicle of that class (type).
So, in short, what I get from it is that we simply need a qualification card that says we qualified. Of course, this varies by agency and who is issuing the card, as nothing in law precludes a qualifying entity from setting their own standards and practices. It seems even my understanding that you must qualify with both a revolver and an auto if you might carry either/or is not required in the statue; only the "type", meaning handgun, rifle or shotgun. That part seems questionable to me, but overall, the article is pretty informative.
LEOSA requires that retired officers have proof they have qualified within the last year with the same "type" of firearm. "Type" is not defined in the LEOSA law; however, if you look up the definition in the same code section, it is defined as handgun, rifle, or shotgun.
Nowhere in the law does it say handgun, pistol, or revolver. It only says "firearm." This indicates that under LEOSA you can carry a firearm—not restricted to a handgun—of the same type you qualified with.
And:
The law does not require that you carry the same firearm you qualified with, so do not make record of what the officer qualified with. The officer could qualify with a revolver and carry a semi-automatic, as it is the same "type" (a handgun) of firearm. If an officer is not carrying the gun he or she qualified with there is nothing you can do. The officer doesn't work for you anymore.
Think of the qualification card as a driver's license. The license doesn't restrict you to driving only the vehicle you drove during the test. It permits you to operate any vehicle of that class (type).
So, in short, what I get from it is that we simply need a qualification card that says we qualified. Of course, this varies by agency and who is issuing the card, as nothing in law precludes a qualifying entity from setting their own standards and practices. It seems even my understanding that you must qualify with both a revolver and an auto if you might carry either/or is not required in the statue; only the "type", meaning handgun, rifle or shotgun. That part seems questionable to me, but overall, the article is pretty informative.
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I carried my M10-8 3" as an off-duty gun long after I had an auto on-duty. Still have it.
Bob
Very nice, "Lefty".
Here's the LEOSA statute covering active and retired LEOs.
18 U.S. Code SS 926B - Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified law enforcement officers | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute
18 U.S. Code SS 926C - Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified retired law enforcement officers | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute
To clarify, while LEOSA only mentions type of firearm most states have their program which defines type as being either revolver or auto. Qualify with a revolver and can carry any revolver. Qualify with an auto and can carry any auto. LEOSA nor anywhere in 18 USC 926 is type defined.
I was on the initial state LEOSA committee immediately after LEOSA was passed in 2004. We were way ahead of other states setting up a state program to comply with LEOSA. Did a lot of research into the legislative intent and prior congressional discussions on it. We fielded questions from a number of other states on how we were setting up our program statewide and a lot of states implemented programs similar to ours. I talked to one eastern state, can't recall which state, who was looking at defining type of firearm by the method of operation of the particular firearm. What they were looking at dealt mostly with autos since the typical police type revolver functions about the same, varying only with method of cylinder rotation and release. But with autos they were looking at defining SA as one type, DA/SA as a type, DAO as a type, guns like the H&K P7 as a type, etc. Their reasoning was a person may be familiar with the operation of a Glock but wouldn't know how to render safe a S&W DA/SA or safely operate a P7. I don't know what that state ever decided. Seemed they were overly complicating the issue and creating more work for themselves. But it's govt, overly complicating things is what govt does.
Then there was an attorney for a large organization (which shall go unnamed) who wrote an article a few years ago that was published in a number of magazines and said that type of firearm meant handgun, shotgun, rifle, whatever. And that a LEO could qualify with a shotgun or an AR-15 and carry it under LEOSA. I wrote the attorney an email explaining that if the LEO/retiree could conceal carry the shotgun or AR-15 then I guess his opinion might be valid. However, to dress around concealing a minimum 26" overall length shotgun or rifle might prove to be a bit of a challenge for most to carry. He responded that nothing in LEOSA said the firearm has to be concealed. He then went on to 'impress' me that he was an attorney and knew the laws. I sent him a reply where I cut and pasted LEOSA and everywhere it stated "concealed" I highlighted it. I told him that it might benefit his credibility if he actually read LEOSA and noted the highlighted words. He's still out there at least as of a year ago giving presentations to LE groups spouting his 'opinion'. A definite case of buyer beware.
18 U.S. Code SS 926B - Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified law enforcement officers | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute
18 U.S. Code SS 926C - Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified retired law enforcement officers | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute
To clarify, while LEOSA only mentions type of firearm most states have their program which defines type as being either revolver or auto. Qualify with a revolver and can carry any revolver. Qualify with an auto and can carry any auto. LEOSA nor anywhere in 18 USC 926 is type defined.
I was on the initial state LEOSA committee immediately after LEOSA was passed in 2004. We were way ahead of other states setting up a state program to comply with LEOSA. Did a lot of research into the legislative intent and prior congressional discussions on it. We fielded questions from a number of other states on how we were setting up our program statewide and a lot of states implemented programs similar to ours. I talked to one eastern state, can't recall which state, who was looking at defining type of firearm by the method of operation of the particular firearm. What they were looking at dealt mostly with autos since the typical police type revolver functions about the same, varying only with method of cylinder rotation and release. But with autos they were looking at defining SA as one type, DA/SA as a type, DAO as a type, guns like the H&K P7 as a type, etc. Their reasoning was a person may be familiar with the operation of a Glock but wouldn't know how to render safe a S&W DA/SA or safely operate a P7. I don't know what that state ever decided. Seemed they were overly complicating the issue and creating more work for themselves. But it's govt, overly complicating things is what govt does.
Then there was an attorney for a large organization (which shall go unnamed) who wrote an article a few years ago that was published in a number of magazines and said that type of firearm meant handgun, shotgun, rifle, whatever. And that a LEO could qualify with a shotgun or an AR-15 and carry it under LEOSA. I wrote the attorney an email explaining that if the LEO/retiree could conceal carry the shotgun or AR-15 then I guess his opinion might be valid. However, to dress around concealing a minimum 26" overall length shotgun or rifle might prove to be a bit of a challenge for most to carry. He responded that nothing in LEOSA said the firearm has to be concealed. He then went on to 'impress' me that he was an attorney and knew the laws. I sent him a reply where I cut and pasted LEOSA and everywhere it stated "concealed" I highlighted it. I told him that it might benefit his credibility if he actually read LEOSA and noted the highlighted words. He's still out there at least as of a year ago giving presentations to LE groups spouting his 'opinion'. A definite case of buyer beware.
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