Pre-War King Super Police Snub M&P - Oh and It's Engraved!!

[ABPOS]

Oh wow. Over the top nice.

That rear sight with the ring. That is so cool. I've never seen that before. I bet that makes for a really nice sight picture with the front gold. Although admittedly I'm not sure how much I'd like a rounded front sight. But I have shot lever guns with that set up and didn't find it bad.

 

[The_Truth]

It goes without saying, this piece is incredibly special. Just a wonderful example. I would cherish it with my whole heart as I'm sure you do! I can't think of a positive superlative that isn't applicable here.

 

[RKmesa]

...That does not appear to be through the blue. What are your thoughts on the finish? The flowers do look like Kuhl's work. Any signature or provenance?

I went over every inch of the gun and found no engraver's marks. The engraving looks like it was cut through the blue and then perhaps a cold blue applied to the engraving. It is much lighter in the engraved parts... I have photos of a handful of Kuhl engraved guns and this one has many of the features. Most of my Kuhl photos are of N-Frame guns with one K-22. I think this may be an early one, and one that was engraved fairly quickly - nice, but simple coverage with no inlays...

It did come to me with a couple of interesting features (besides the engraving and the sights). It came with a holster...







[All you Holster guys - any thoughts on the maker or have you ever seen one like this before (it's a first for me)? There are no marks on it anywhere - perhaps homemade??]


... and a screw in grip adapter carved out of ebony:

 

[RKmesa]

... Now we have 2 revolvers with 2" barrels that were both shipped to San Francisco on November 27th 1933! Mine remains in original condition and I'm sure both guns were on the same train to S.F. Small world!

Bill:

That is way cool! I knew this one was early, but I did not know it was that early... Your M&P is outstanding and mine is certainly not in its original condition - but I think I'm okay with that in this case. Although, I would take any pre-war snubbie M&P in almost any condition...

I would assume that they shipped in a 4" M&P box, as they were some of the earlier ones shipped and they probably had not made the boxes for the 2"ers. I just happened to have an extra period correct M&P patent box with some paperwork lying around ... so I snapped a few Glamour shots with the box and what I believe is some period-correct "stuff":

On the box:





... and in the box...

 

[handejector]

Got any more old ammo? That 38 S&W ain't gonna fit.


I missed the hole for the grip adapter. Neat that it is ebony. I think I would put it on. The gun is modified anyway in a very nice way, and that just makes it more custom.
I think those small medallion grips are from very early in the M&P era. I wonder why it shipped with NON medallion grips. I suppose it was ordered that way, or Roy would not have even known they were non medallion.

 

[RKmesa]

Got any more old ammo? That 38 S&W ain't gonna fit.

That is too funny - I can go with two stories: 1) that's what I get when I try and organize my ammo at the same time as I'm taking photos - I grabbed the wrong box - man I got to slow down and check a few things a little closer... ... or 2) there is a pre-war Terrier, just out of the frame of the photo that is waiting for that 38 S&W ammo?

Looks like this little guy will be getting another photo shoot in the near future...

 

[lestert357]

Bill:

That is way cool! I knew this one was early, but I did not know it was that early... Your M&P is outstanding and mine is certainly not in its original condition - but I think I'm okay with that in this case. Although, I would take any pre-war snubbie M&P in almost any condition...

I would assume that they shipped in a 4" M&P box, as they were some of the earlier ones shipped and they probably had not made the boxes for the 2"ers. I just happened to have an extra period correct M&P patent box with some paperwork lying around ... so I snapped a few Glamour shots with the box and what I believe is some period-correct "stuff":

On the box:





... and in the box...

RK,

Now first you need to thoroughly read the thread on Collector Ethics in the SWCA Forum, and then you need to sell me this entire package so that you don't ever have to worry about the ethics of this "put together" package! [emoji15] Oh, and make sure I get the right box of ammo! [emoji38]

 

[nutsforsmiths]

Both of those pistols are great!

I have posted this M&P a few times before, shipped in 1948 to King's Gun Sight Co. in SF. Yours are in much better shape than the one I have. Note on the last photo how King's changed the way they installed the front sight.

 

[Green Frog]

nutsforsmiths, I also notice that the "improved" rear notch on your post-War example has a U-shaped profile while the earlier one from the OP has the square notch. I wonder whether that was a change in practice over time or was available in both styles throughout.

RKmesa, the display package you put together is most appropriate and I hope you will soon find the proper caliber ammo box so the sharp eyed won't crash your picture show! Would the "Dog Bone" style box of Remington ammo be of the proper vintage? I've always though they were the ultimate cool on display.

Froggie

 

[Derosa]

I hate you. I will not sit straight for a week.

 

[rct269]

KING GUNSIGHT COMPANY, 1913-1955

Once again, clicking "Like" just doesn't convey my feelings. We still need tabs that say something like "Adore" or "Lust After" or something even more emphatic.

One of my goals in small guns is to take my old Baby Chief and give it the Super Police treatment. I thought I had found a gunsmith willing to do it, but he was thinking of doing the King Target conversion with rib and all, certainly not appropriate for my Baby! Your excellent pictures will go in my files for possible use in having a talented machinist I know set up to try and replicate the package. Thanks for sharing!

Regards,
Froggie

PS Does anyone have a date for the end of King Gunsights? Did the company exist in any form after WW II?

My material says King Gunsight Company production ended in 1955.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Green Frog]

My material says King Gunsight Company production ended in 1955.

Ralph Tremaine

Thanks, Ralph. This means that it would at least be possible to have had a Baby Chief run through the shop and equipped as a Super Police Model. I had previously had people tell me it was impossible, presumably because they were counting King's passing as the end of the company as well. If I hit this topic in enough threads, I'm hoping someone will come forward with an actual example.

I would still be curious to know whether the square vs U-shaped profile for the rear sight would be proper at the late date or perhaps both? Inquiring minds want to know.

Froggie

 

[Thinnes]

Wow wow

But Richard, I'm sorry to inform you that this is not an N frame. I will be happy to take it off your hands... Dave

 

[handejector]

I'd love to see your King Super Police modified guns or any 2" pre-war M&P as well.

I believe the fixed sight King guns are far rarer than the King Target guns. I've seen hundreds of King Target guns over the years, but only a handful of fixed sighted King guns.


An interesting version of the Super Police on a Super Police.
This early 38/44 HD shipped April 15, 1930. The HD was introduced April 1, 1930. The old gun still wears its original grips.
Bigger pics are here- 38 HD King Super Police
It obviously has a red post instead of the usual LARGE Gold Bead seen on a King Super Police.

These early HDs still have the fouling Cup>

King also worked on the Off Brand.
A King Super Police on the Official Police.
This old Colt is #5960XX and is probably from early 1936.

 

[410bore]

I only have this offbrand in the fixed sight department.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mbliss57]

I have always loved the King sighted pre-war guns and I have run down quite a few over the years. But a King Super Police has always eluded me and I have drooled over Caleb's and others posting their Super Police beauties. Finally I was able to run one down and it just happens to be engraved (a double win in my book), with a set of perfect factory gold medallion pearl grips (a triple win...).

It shipped on Nov 27, 1933 to A. Balich in San Francisco, CA, which was also the home of King Gun Sight Company and Orville Kuhl, an engraver known for engraving through the blue and working flowers into most of his engravings... My guess is that the gun went to King for their "Super Police Night Sights" and then to Mr. Kuhl for some further customization.

I'd love to see your King Super Police modified guns or any 2" pre-war M&P as well.

Thanks for letting me share,

Words are hard to come by. That is is stunning and truly rare example. Just beautiful.
Now my question immediately was that you must be talking about a 38/44 HD as a Super Police. I scanned the SCSW for "Super Police" and in fact came up with only HD under that name.
Where does the name Super Police come from in the M&P?
Was that King's name for his customized package? The name given to it by the police? Or did I miss something in the SCSW? I am just trying to learn, not being critical at all.

 

[Green Frog]

Words are hard to come by. That is is stunning and truly rare example. Just beautiful.
Now my question immediately was that you must be talking about a 38/44 HD as a Super Police. I scanned the SCSW for "Super Police" and in fact came up with only HD under that name.
Where does the name Super Police come from in the M&P?
Was that King's name for his customized package? The name given to it by the police? Or did I miss something in the SCSW? I am just trying to learn, not being critical at all.

I don't have the link right now but a couple of years ago someone scanned and posted a copy of an old King catalog. It showed the price and description of a package of upgrades called the Super Police package. It was actually pretty reasonable since it involved mostly labor (which was pretty cheap back then) and the addition of a commonly made front sight blade. I'm actually surprised we don't see more of them and can only assume that LEOs of the era felt that it didn't improve their guns enough to justify even that modest additional cost. I still wish I could find someone set up to do the conversion today!

Froggie

 

[handejector]

Now my question immediately was that you must be talking about a 38/44 HD as a Super Police. I scanned the SCSW for "Super Police" and in fact came up with only HD under that name.
Where does the name Super Police come from in the M&P?
Was that King's name for his customized package?

That would be a Yes. They cost an outrageous $2.50! Pic of a King catalog-

 

[RKmesa]

... and one more photo from another King brochure:



The front sight itself seems to be cheap at $2.50, but the package (including the white outline rear sight) was more pricey at $17.50...

 

[Green Frog]

... and one more photo from another King brochure:



The front sight itself seems to be cheap at $2.50, but the package (including the white outline rear sight) was more pricey at $17.50...

Oddly enough, early brochures price the front and rear sight mods at $2.50 each/$5.00 total. I can see why they became less frequently ordered after the price to do the rear sight skyrocketed by six fold from $2.50 to $15.00!

Froggie