Evaluating the .38 Spl+P FBI Load/Gelatin overreliance

Anyway, I have noticed over the past few years discussions and videos concerning the above said round demonstrating that it “won’t expand out of 2 inch barrels”. These discussions and demonstrations revolve around it’s performance in a block of gelatin (with sometimes some old blue jeans or a few water jugs thrown in)


But is that really a fair or accurate appraisal? 1) genations of real world shootings on live human bodies with flesh, bone, water, tissue, blood, etc. show the FBI Load to expand exceptionally well out of both 2 and 4 inch revolvers. 2) some of these same gelatin tests also “show” other field proven rounds like the 9BPLE 115 gr +p+ JHP or .357 Magnum 125 gr SJHP as having poor penetration and/or weak expansion (which is certainly not the case in real life shootings). Then the experts will jump to their favorite latest greatest round with some star sword or vicious animal or zombi killer name.

Based on all this, would it be accurate to say that gelatin, while useful, is overused and over relied on? And field reports on real world shootings going way back under appreciated?


From what I have researched any bullet that does well in the 4LD FBI calibrated gel tests, does well on the street.

The 4LD isn't to simulate clothing, but simulate worst case plugging and the Synthetic gel usually gives erratic and exaggerated results.

Bottom line I wouldn't want to be shot period. But with a pistol round being marginal, and the human body being robust, it only makes sense to carry and shoot the best bullets available. If you practice one handed, two handed, stationary, on the move and become proficient with what you carry shot placement is the most important thing anyway. I think people get too tied up in gel tests. Expanded or not a 158gr to the CNS is a 158gr to the CNS.
 
Extremely cool, thank you for the info. I was not aware of that. Real world usage and results in bodies is of course the ultimate test, thanks for backing that up very cool.

The issue now is twofold:

1. Manufacturers, especially Remington, have watered down the FBI load in recent times. Will it perform as well as it used to when the real hot stuff was on the street?

2. It’s pretty tough to find. I think of all the current ones out there, actually Buffalo Bore’s “standard pressure” LSWCHP is going to be the closest to the original load itself and would be a good choice in a snub or service revolver.

I’ll continue to use Gold Dot short barrel not because it’s any better, I just happen to have plenty and it too is a proven load that’s been used for years. The short barrel Speers were even the last authorized service loads for NYPD not only in snubs, but for the small number of officers left carrying them as primary. Now that’s not the case for better or worse, but between them and LAPD, the Speer load has a very good reputation of performance.

I mean't to post this link when I mentioned Stephen Camp. He discusses a shooting that involved several fellow officers with snubbies using the LSWCHP. He has several articles discussing the LSWCHP in addition to this one: New Page 2

Federal and Winchester .38 Spl+P 158 gr LSWCHP are available on both Lucky Gunner and Cheaper Than Dirt. I bought a box of Federal last week. Plenty left. I still have a box of Winchester in my Cheaper Than Dirt shopping cart. My local sporting goods store has plenty of Winchester X box in +P LSWCHP in stock (but it's like $50 for a box of 50)

Federal beats everybody in price: Cheap 38 Special Ammo For Sale - 158 gr +P LSWCHP Federal Law Enforcement Ammunition In Stock - 5f0 rounds


The last time I put Remington's through my chrono was about 5 or 6 years ago using Express .38 +P not the HTP they use now. They clocked out of my Colt Official Police 4 inch: 932.1, 953.4, 948.5, 976.4, 946.9, 917.1 Feet Per Second

Buffalo Bore: 1181, 1193, 1199, 1194, 1150, 1188 Feet Per Second (for anyone who doubts Buffalo Bore's website data)

The Remingtons preformed out of my Detective Special 2 inch: : 832.4, 853, 832, 812, 803, 818.5 Feet Per Second



I have some leftover HTP rounds, I'll clock them probably in the coming week or two when things dry up from the April showers around here and I can get outside and practice using up my old Remington HTP LHP ammo and transitioning to the Federal LSWCHP. I'll make a record of how they perform.
 
Like you, I put more weight on how rounds perform in actual shootings, which is why I choose Speer 135gr SB-GDHP +P for my .38 snub and Federal 147gr HST for my 9mms.

I'll add that the FBI load is my second favorite snub load, though my preference is for Buffalo Bore's standard pressure version as it most closely matches the original FBI load's velocity. I also like that it has the softest lead bullet. And while it wouldn't be my first choice, I'd be ok if all I could get was Federal 115gr 9BPLE for my 9mms.

Of course, gel tests shouldn't be ignored, though they are often misinterpreted, especially when people start talking about how humans have muscle, skin, bone, organs, etc., and gel doesn't. As has been said, gel tests are a good way to compare different loads.
 
However, the needs of LEOs vary a bit from the needs of armed citizens, who generally should not be firing at fleeing suspect, through barriers, etc., with the result that using just the gel test data is a pretty decent proxy. Even then, the 12" standard isn't an absolute minimum given the face to face target aspect common to most armed citizen self defense shoots, but its still a decent standard to "shoot" for.

I agree with what you've posted, but I did want to expand a bit on the highlighted portion here.

I think barrier penetration should be considered for non-LEOs, but maybe not in the way it's typically considered. As you said, available evidence suggests that an armed citizen is more likely to engage an attacker(s) face-to-face. One thing to consider is that if an attacker is shooting at you, his gun, and his arms holding it, are likely to be in front of his center-of-mass, thus acting as "barriers". For that reason, I think barrier penetration should be a consideration, though the ability to perform after perforating windshields and car doors is not that likely for an armed citizen.
 
Yes, Remington has, according to chronograph data (including some posted by a member here), watered down their "FBI" load.

I still have a few rounds of the good older stuff I used in two- and four-inch revolvers for almost twenty years, and am saving it. Currently I carry the standard pressure Buffalo Bore 158 grain LSWCHP-GC, with no worries about the gas check. If in fact it harms barrels, and I'm not at all sure of that, I won't be shooting enough to damage one.

Before I switched to the +P FBI load I carried Remington's +P 125 grain Golden Saber. It was recommended by a police officer who had carried it for years, and he never mentioned any barrel damage.

As for the gelatin question, it's pretty clear they use it to provide repeatable test results rather than simulation of human or animal tissue and bone. I don't worry about it a lot, preferring a record of effective use in real world shootings. We have a retired LEO member here whose bacon was saved more than once by the FBI load. I listen to those things, anecdotal though they be.
 
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The last time I put Remington's through my chrono was about 5 or 6 years ago using Express .38 +P not the HTP they use now. They clocked out of my Colt Official Police 4 inch: 932.1, 953.4, 948.5, 976.4, 946.9, 917.1 Feet Per Second

Buffalo Bore: 1181, 1193, 1199, 1194, 1150, 1188 Feet Per Second (for anyone who doubts Buffalo Bore's website data)

The Remingtons preformed out of my Detective Special 2 inch: : 832.4, 853, 832, 812, 803, 818.5 Feet Per Second.

This green/yellow box Remington 158 grain LSWCHP +P, both Express and HST, chronographs almost identically from my 2" M49, and has since the '80s - not sure where the rumor about it being watered down got started, but you can bet it will never die. If you get 800-850 fps with this bullet from a 2" 38 special you are getting just what you always did from Remington since +P hit the market.

I got 1050-1101 fps from this ammo from an 18" barreled Marlin 1894C.
 
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The last time I put Remington's through my chrono was about 5 or 6 years ago using Express .38 +P not the HTP they use now. They clocked out of my Colt Official Police 4 inch: 932.1, 953.4, 948.5, 976.4, 946.9, 917.1 Feet Per Second

Buffalo Bore: 1181, 1193, 1199, 1194, 1150, 1188 Feet Per Second (for anyone who doubts Buffalo Bore's website data)

I tested the HTP Remington version last year. Chronograph sat about 5 Yards downrange. Out of my 4 inch model 65 the average velocity was 895 fps. By comparison, American Eagle 357 JSP averaged 1249.5 FPS. Five shot averages if I recall correctly. I misplaced my handwritten notes but I believe the velocity variance was 876 at the low end and 930 or so at the high-end.

I now carry buffalo bore's plus P version, which recoils pretty dang stout. After reading some posts about the BB plus P possibly been overpressured, I may buy a box of their standard pressure variant for use in my 3 inch 64.
 
Much of what we think we know about the venerable "FBI load" is anecdotal at best. It's been a full generation since the FBI actually used this ammo so I'm sure much of the tribal knowledge is lost. The test data is still out there, but that begs the question; "If I have a 158 Gr. SWCHP and the case head is stamped '+P', does that make it the 'FBI' load?" As to barrel length, it shouldn't be lost on anyone in this forum that the last weapon that the FBI used this ammo in was the 3" K frame.

Since people don't rely on revolvers much at all anymore, I suppose old-timers and nostalgia buffs like us have to figure this nonsense out for ourselves.

The original FBI loads by Remington, Winchester and in particular Federal were not easy to develop. There are some conflicting demands in the 158 gr LSWCHP load. It has to be soft enough to expand at 3" (let alone 1 7/8" to 2 1/8") velocities, and yet it has to be hard enough or well lubricated enough not to cause leading at .38+ pressures (and to a much lesser extent velocities).

Federal in particular had a very hard time finding that sweet spot. Unless you've seen recent gel testing confirming the performance of current 158 gr LSWCHP .38 +P loads, I would not even begin to consider them to be as effective as the old "FBI" loads, as there is no need for manufacturers to go to the expense to develop a load that both expands and won't have issues with leading.
 
From what I have researched any bullet that does well in the 4LD FBI calibrated gel tests, does well on the street.

The 4LD isn't to simulate clothing, but simulate worst case plugging and the Synthetic gel usually gives erratic and exaggerated results.

Bottom line I wouldn't want to be shot period. But with a pistol round being marginal, and the human body being robust, it only makes sense to carry and shoot the best bullets available. If you practice one handed, two handed, stationary, on the move and become proficient with what you carry shot placement is the most important thing anyway. I think people get too tied up in gel tests. Expanded or not a 158gr to the CNS is a 158gr to the CNS.

You're referencing four layer denim testing like it is actually an FBI protocol. It isn't. I'm not sure who started substituting 4 layers of denim, and I'm not sure who started calling that the FBI protocol, but it simply isn't.

.../

/...A note of question about current FBI test protocol. I read somewhere that the FBI does not use 4 layers of denim but rather 1 layer of denim, 2 layers of T-shirt and 1 layer of sweatshirt. Does anyone know for sure?
Also it appears that most You Tube Testers use 4 layers of brand hew very stiff denim which I would think would be much tougher than say, 2-3 year old stone washed denim.

The FBI's Heavy Clothing barrier is designed to actually reflect heavy winter clothing and consists of:
(1) layer of Denim (14.4 ounces/yard, 50 threads per inch);
(1) layer of Polartec 200 fleece;
(1) layer of cotton dress shirt (3.5 ounces/yard, 80 threads per inch); and
(1) cotton T-shirt (5.25 ounces/yard, 48 threads per inch) layered firmly on the face of the ballistic gelatin block.

It's intended to mimic a coat with a durable wind resistant layer and underlying insulation, along with a shirt and a tee shirt.

It's not the same as the four layer denim test, and the results of 4 layers of denim plugging a hollow point don't necessarily generalize to how well that same hollow point might perform with the 4 layers actually used by the FBI. Yet shooters swear by the 4LD test as they think it is an "FBI" protocol.

As an aside, the FBI switched from down to Polartec in 2004 to reduce the variability that was created by down fill.


----

The full protocol starts with bare calibrated gelatin, which has results that are not significantly different than Light Clothing (a cotton undershirt and a linen dress shirt). If a bullet doesn't expand here it's not going to perform in the later tests.

Steel penetration protocols are designed mimic a car door. The FBI Steel fixture simulates the thinnest part of a car door with no intervening gears, motors, handles, stiffeners, etc. It consists of two pieces of 20 gauge sheet steel placed 3” apart. The gelatin is placed 18” behind the car door fixture and is covered in light clothing (the cotton T-shirt and linen dress shirt). The gel block simulates an adversary who is shooting from behind a car door. Conventional handgun bullets which impact this material usually end up with a flattened nail head appearance which slightly increases the expanded diameter of the bullet, but prevents any further expansion.

The FBI wall board protocol simulates penetration in a residential wall. I'm not sure why, but the FBI uses two pieces of .5" drywall spaced 3.5" apart to simulate a wall when it's common to use 1/2" drywall on ceilings and either 5/8" on walls as it's more durable, or 3/4" as it has a better fire rating. it's backed up by the same gel block covered in Light Clothing.

The plywood protocol partially simulates an exterior wall. Interestingly, the FBI just uses a single sheet of 3/4" AA fir plywood, rather than also using a spaced layer of 1/2" dry wall, and it doesn't incorporate any siding material. A single sheet does eliminate the directionality issue, but it also isn't reflective of much more than a single layer garage or shed wall with no siding. Still, it's a useful test as a bullet that will reliably expand in 3/4" plywood will almost always expand well in dry wall and heavy clothing.

The auto glass protocol uses a 1/4" thick 15"x18" AS1 laminated safety glass panel with a Light Clothing covered ballistic gel block aced 18” behind the glass panel. The panel is angled 45 degrees from the vertical and 15 degrees to the side to create a compound angle to simulate a shot taken at the driver from the left front quarter. There is once again a Light Clothing covered gel block 18" behind the panel.

The FBI uses 5 shots in each test, scores each shot, and scores each shot.

They score penetration and consistency in penetration:

FBI%20chart.png


Expansion:

bullet%20expansion%20chart.png


and Retained weight:

retained%20weight%20chart.png


The FBI then averages the scores for all five rounds in each of the tests and scored criteria and applies three formulas using the average scores to get a point total.

Penetration:

(((Penetration Score x Penetration Standard Deviation Score) x .5) + (Shots under 12" score x 0.2)) x50) = Penetration Points

Expansion:

(average point value x 0.2) x 50 = Expansion Points

and Weight Retention:

(average point value x 0.1) x 50 = Weight Retention Points

The FBI adds the three sub totals together to award a final point score out of 500 possible points. Given the narrow ranges for maximum points in penetration, expansion and weight retention, and the emphasis placed on consistency, even the best loads currently being made will only score around 250 points.
 
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I do like the 158 gr LSWCHP format, but I don't have any confidence in the current .38 +P "FBI" loads, and availability is a bit spotty.

The Hornady 158 gr LSWCHP is however widely available and is also inexpensive, compared to to the 125 gr or 158 XTP, the 135 gr Gold Dot (which is also spotty in availability), etc.

I've worked up loads for it in both .38 +P and .357 Magnum, and I've found that it needs to be well lubed at much more than .38 Special target pressures to prevent leading. That's actually encouraging in terms of expansion potential, even though the hollow point and meplat are a bit small.

Two light coats of liquid Alox on the Hornady LSWCHPs solves the leading issues, even at .357 Mag pressures, but I have not been able to assess expansion to find the velocity envelope where I get reliable expansion and optimum penetration. More isn't always better as excessive velocity in a hollow point bullet can result in premature expansion and actually reduce penetration below the 12" mark.

Unfortunately I took a state director position in St. Paul MN, and actual gel testing will be on hold until we find a house, I get out of my current 1 bedroom apartment, we complete the move, and I find a place to shoot that allows things like gel testing.

I don't see that happening at any of the commercial ranges or gun clubs in the area.
 
Ah, Yesss..the bullet/caliber/gelatin/FPS/Love potion #9 discussion...

The search for the magic bullet continues.

Ain't no such thing!!! But the conversations are reminiscent of
"discussions" in the "olden days" of which hunting round/caliber could "shoot harder". But where's the fun in agreeing?

Anybody bring Popcorn?

Another horror story that just won't die is about "HARMFUL" 125 gr bullets. In another lifetime, it was true that Smith & Wesson k frame barrels were cracking, after a greater or lesser use of 125 gr. bullets at ~1400 fps. I'd wager Smith & Wesson engineers never dreamed of velocities in that range, not in K frames! But, times have changed, and knowledge is more available now, and designs/velocities have changed so anyone who uses a bit of common sense, and milder loads need not worry much about their K frame Smiths' barrels being cracked, if they aren't already. The milder loads are equally as effective as the "Blue Whistlers" of yore.
 
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Buffalo Bore version I keep as a reserve backup reload just in case but not something I prefer to keep loaded as a primary carry for reasons that ade another discussion for another time (btw, Buffalo Bore DOES perform as advertised)

What is your concern about Buffalo Bore?
 
For what little value it might add to this very interesting thread, here is a pic of some FBI loads actually issued to me by the FBI.

When the Bureau deemed revolvers verboten around 2000 there were still cases of this sitting around, even though the issued round by then was the Federal 147 grain +P+ Hydrashok. The Division PFI sent it out to his minion Firearms Instructors and said shoot it or give it to your local PDs, just don’t sell it. I bought a Marlin .357 lever action and commenced exploding gophers. One day I missed a big sassy buck gopher at a range of about ten feet. There bore of that little Marlin was just a shiny lead smoothbore tube. It took forever to clean it out.

This is usually what I carry in my snubs.

BTW, FBI revolvers could be had in 2”, 2 1/2”, 3”, 3 1/2”, and 4” barrels and the ammo had to be effective in all of them.
 

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Doug,
I'm with you all the way. I understand the logic behind the 4 layers of denim for the FBI, and agree with it entirely...... For the FBI; but the same doesn't work for me. First, I fear that this could lead to under penetration if the threat were wearing nothing but a white t-shirt, Common in the deep South, in warmer months. Also, since this new testing method has popped up, many old tried and true rounds have suddenly been dubbed duds, despite their history. (158gr LSWC +P, 129gr hydro-shok, 125gr scalloped SJHP......)
But then again, I've never been too trendy of fasionalble. I carry Remington HTP 110gr +P in my snubby, and 158 gr in my 4".
 
BTW, FBI revolvers could be had in 2”, 2 1/2”, 3”, 3 1/2”, and 4” barrels and the ammo had to be effective in all of them.

Off-topic, but I was always intrigued by the 2.5" Model 10s the FBI issued for a while.

Back on topic (sort of)...I believe those Winchester FBI loads were the same ones I carried in my 4" Model 10 some 20+ years ago when I worked as an armed guard. The company I worked for issued either 158gr LRN or SWC (I can't remember which), but I went to my manager with a box of these and he gave me permission to carry them. 6 rounds in the gun plus 2 speedloaders on my duty belt. Working at a bank in the bank robbery capital of the US at the time, I felt adequately armed. Fortunately, I never had to use them.
 
They are cool guns, issued for a relatively short period before the Model 13 was adopted. I’ve never seen one outside of the FBI.

I saw one for sale at the Oaks, Pa gun show back in February for $595. Like an idiot I didn’t buy it right away, and when I went back it was sold. Still kicking myself. Dealer said he had three of them at the start of the show, they went fast.

I carried Winchester .38 FBI load in my revolvers for well over 10 years. At one time I had several cases of it, now all I have left are a couple of boxes. I switched to the 135 grain GDHP in 2009 because I was having a hard time getting more of the FBI load.
 
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