New problem with my Model 52

[mikemyers]

Back in March, I entered a new thread about how to get my Model 52 to work. After weeks of discussion, much of it from 'donk52', we finally figured out the problems. Took it to the range, and nobody believed it was fixed - so I let everyone try it. It worked flawlessly.

I used it a few times since then, but have mostly been concentrating on my Model 41. Anyway, I took the 52 to the range last week, and for unknown reasons, it was having a slightly different problem. It would fire off several shots, then it "felt" like it fired, but there was no bang and no mark on the primer. If I pulled the hammer back for a second attempt, it fired.

I thought this might have something to do with the "plunger" and spring under the rear sight, which is what the problem was last time. Meanwhile, someone I know was selling his own 52, and I bought his red dot sight and BME mount to put on my gun.

I removed the standard rear sight, the spring, and the plunger a few days ago. The plunger still looks good, but for a little wear on the flat side. I'll attach a photo.

As a test, I removed the plunger and spring completely, and mounted the BME mount and dot sight. I still expected the gun to work, and expected the magazine disconnect would now allow the gun to fire regardless of whether or not a magazine was in place.


Observations from this morning's trip to the range:

1 - Spent shells didn't go very far, most were dropping at my feet, and a couple came out of the gun and just fell down onto my table in front of me.

2 - every so often, the slide did not lock back after the last round.

3 - the main problem is that every so often, I would shoot one round, then pull the trigger to shoot the next, but all I heard was a small "click". If I lowered the magazine slightly, I heard a noise, as if something was moving inside the gun. On the second attempt to fire, usually the gun did fire, but a couple of times I was back to my original problem - the gun "felt" like it should have fired, but there was no mark on the primer. If I removed the round, put it back into a magazine, and tried again, the gun usually fired. (I only had the one magazine with me today - need to try this again with a different magazine next time, just in case the magazine is causing the problems.)


What I think I'll do on Wednesday, is to put the plunger and spring back in place, with the BME mount and red dot sight on top, and see if re-installing the plunger "fixes" things.

I'm also curious about the recoil spring. I'll have to check which one is now in the gun, but is it normal for rounds to literally fall at my feet?

I'll also attach a photo of the gun with the BME mount and Venom Vortex sight - everything fits together as if S&W designed it that way! Very pleased, and I shot better too.

 

[Ignatz]

Years back, I shot my 52 in Bullseye matches, but mostly in International Centerfire events. Mine didn't throw cases far and the slide never stayed back on the last shot.
I never did anything about it because I never alibied in a match, or had trouble practicing.
I felt at the time....that the magazine springs were a little weak, but never did anything about it.
With the triggers on these things, I learned that adjusting the trigger stop screw and that other screw inside the frame.....need to be given extra "room" to reset for the 52 to work right. Don't set these screws on the exact edge of resetting.....give them space for reliable functioning.
I loved shooting my 52 in matches....in the late 90's!

 

[mikemyers]

.........Mine didn't throw cases far and the slide never stayed back on the last shot.........

I'm guessing I need to change my recoil spring to a lighter one, once I figure out what's in the gun. I guess I'll try that. I'll also see if anything changed on the trigger stop setting.

Sounds like you had a great gun!!!! You still have it?

 

[Ignatz]

Still have it....if you change anything on your gun, only do one thing at a time. That way you can see what helps or not.

 

[824tsv]

Excellent pick up on the Vortex Venom!!! Probably the BEST reflex sight for a pistol.

 

[mikemyers]

I agree about one thing at a time, and yes, I'm starting to very much enjoy the Vortex Venom.

Took the 52 apart, to clean and lube. It's still apart, other than the slide which is re-assembled. I removed the sight, dropped in the plunger, after wiping it with "oily" fingers, got the BME sight mount started, compressed the plunger spring, pushed the BME until it was centered, and gradually tightened the mounting screws, each one a little at a time.

While it was apart, I took two photos, one of the plunger (doesn't seem very worn to me) and one looking into the hole the plunger drops into. Not sure about that - doesn't look very good, but I have no idea if, or how, it can ce improved. If the area that looks "torn up" at the bottom of the hole is part of the slide, maybe it's not repairable? ......and if so, maybe I can get the gun to work better by removing other parts of the magazine disconnect as well?

By tomorrow, it will be assembled and ready to try again. Last time I did this it lasted for a while, so maybe that will happen again. I wish I understood how these parts work with each other.


I hope Don gets to see this - he'll know what it's supposed to look like at the bottom of that hole. Maybe he'll know of a good "bandaid" to patch it up, with or without the magazine disconnect functioning. .....or maybe I'm way off base, and the magazine disconnect has nothing to do with the gun not firing. Last time though, when we fixed these parts, the gun worked flawlessly, for weeks.

 

[BigBoy99]

Adding extra mass to the slide (the Vemon Vortes site) is going to change the recoil characteristics of the gun. The amount of mass to be moved by the recoil of the cartridge has increased so one would expect problems with the slide not recoiling as fast (poor ejection) and the possibility of feeding problems and not locking to rear on last round. The increased mass would require a change to a lighter spring to compensated for the added slide mass.

 

[batman4706]

Was it reloads or factory ammo?

 

[mikemyers]

Thanks. I've been thinking about the original problem, which seems to have returned. Maybe.

Regarding the ammo, next time it's apart, I will weigh the Venom Vortex sight and the BME mount, and also the OEM Model 52 steel sight.

Ammo - I was shooting with Zero 38 Special 148 WCHB ZC which is remanufactured ammo.

I also have Magtech 38 Special 9.59g (148 gr) LWC (38B) (Factory Ammo).

In addition, I have Federal Premium 38 Special 148 Grain Lead Wadcutter Match, Gold Medal Match. (Factory Ammo)


Before I change anything else on the gun, I'll try the Magtech and Federal.




Regarding springs, I have the original spring that came with the gun, but the previous owner might have replaced it. I need to measure the strength of that spring.

EDITED INFO JUST ADDED, 8:30am:
I also have three Wolff recoil springs, 10# (installed in the gun June 23 2019), 9#, and 8#. I forget why I installed the 10# spring, but now that I'm looking at the labels, the 8# is identified as "factory standard", and the 9# and 10# are identified as "extra power".

Seems like I should replace the 10# spring with the factory standard 8# spring, and then try all the ammo to see what works best.



That still leaves me with a potential problem of the machined hole in the slide for the plunger and spring that go below the sight - the "flat" surface that covers part of the bottom of that hole looks damaged. I don't know if that surface is part of the slide, or if it is something that goes into the slide and can be replaced. I will try to take a better photo of it.

 

[mikemyers]

Maybe one of these will help. If that is literally a part of the slide, it might not even be repairable...???

 

[mikemyers]

Maybe, that torn up stuff at the bottom of the hole is material that came from the plunger? That would almost make sense. Here are photos I took of the old plunger when it came out of the gun. Maybe I just need to scrape it away with a dental pick?

 

[boatbum101]

Try the 8lb spring & buy a 7lb from Wolff . With a 1" Ultradot & BME mount that replaces rear sight I use the 7lb spring . Brass just kind of dribbles out the gun .

 

[mikemyers]

Thanks; 8# spring now in gun, and will order the 7# spring. Heading off to range now. Will be an interesting session.

I need to message Donk52 to ask about the stuff at the bottom of the hole in my slide. The "stuff" at the bottom doesn't look like steel, and I doubt steel would have worn like that anyway. The plunger is made of something softer than steel, which makes me think that "stuff" came from the bottom of an improperly installed plunger some time ago. I guess it can't hurt to see if it "falls off" if I scrape at it with a dental pick. Wish I had thought about this last night, but it wasn't until I got a good look at yesterday's photos, and then took more photos this morning, that I got this (possible) explanation.

'boatbum101', the Venom Vortex is much lighter than the Ultradot; the heaviest thing on top of my gun is the BME mount. If it would have fit easily, I'd have tried an Ultradot L/T, but the VV seems to work as if it was made for this gun. Thanks!

 

[mikemyers]

Updated results - with the 52 cleaned, 8# spring installed, and the magazine disconnect parts installed under the sight, and using a newer magazine, the gun worked flawlessly. This is with Zero, Magtech, and Federal ammo. The slide always locked back after last round, there were no misfires, and empty shell are now being sent two to five feet away from me.

I showed the photo of the bottom of the hole in the frame for the plunger, to one of my friends at the range. He thinks I'm on the right path about the shiny metallic stuff at the bottom of the hole - we can see the gray steel underneath this metal, and the metal likely came off when the old plunger was turned to the wrong orientation, and the firing pin spring was dragging across it for every shot. All the parts of this story combine in a reasonable explanation.

Solution - next time the slide comes off, remove the sight again, remove the spring and plunger, and see if the shiny stuff falls of from the slide, when I use a dental pick on it. Dental pick can't hurt the slide, so I think this is safe for me to do.

It was wonderful to have the 52 working so well - I need to adjust the sights, but I was getting better results from this gun than I recall getting from my own Model 52.

 

[mikemyers]

I think I'm at a dead end, but I'm pretty sure I found the exact problem.

The re-assembled gun shot fine this morning. I took it apart to see if I could clean up the bottom of the hole the plunger goes into. Nope, whatever that area is, it appears to be part of the slide.

These two photos show what is happening. The first shows the slide, with the hole the plunger goes into. At the left there is a "notch" to hold the plunger oriented correctly. At the bottom, you see the plunger.

The second photo shows the plunger located inside the hole in the slide. A spring goes over that, and then the rear sight holds everything in place.

If you notice at the "top" of the photo, there is an empty space alongside the plunger. It's empty here, but when the gun fires, the firing pin components slide back and forth within that empty space.

If the gun stays like this, as it did this morning, all is well, and the gun works properly. But, if the plunger "escapes" from the notch, and rotates to a position where it interferes with the firing pin parts, that robs the energy needed to fire the gun, which is why I had light strikes when this problem first showed up.


Not sure if this is what's going on, but it sounds logical.


I will re-assemble the gun now the way it should be. I expect it's going to work fine. When/if it acts up again, I will ask you guys what would happen if I simple remove the plunger and spring, and reassemble the gun without them. I suspect the gun should work properly, but there would be no magazine disconnect safety - the gun would "fire" with or without the magazine. Does this make sense? If so, maybe that's the best way to "fix" it, unless someone has a better idea.

I need to ask Donk52 for his advice. If the gun needs a new slide, they're not available, and even if they were, it would need to be fitted to the frame.

Maybe I should pack the hole for the spring with grease, and the spring and grease might help to keep the plunger oriented correctly?

 

[Jeff423]

I fought a similar problem for a couple of years. I finally took some jb weld and glued a tiny piece of steel to the portion of the slide stop that catches the magazine. This made it longer and engaged the magazine better. For as long as that held the slide always stayed back. Bottom line was that part was too short. I tried to have some metal brazed on to extend it but that didn't work (I couldn't profile the point correctly) I bought a NOS stop from Jack First (very expensive) and that fixed it.

 

[mikemyers]

........I bought a NOS stop from Jack First ....... and that fixed it.

THANK YOU! I called Jack Frost and described my problem in detail:
Jack First Gun Parts – Jack First Inc.

I ordered two of the "Ejector Depressor Plunger" in steel, and one in plastic. If my other Model 52 acts up, I'll have the part to fix it.

I don't think you and I had the same problem, but Jack First did have the exact part I needed, in stock.

 

[Sevens]

I love the Model 52 pistol but I have always really loathed the magazine disconnect safety on this particular pistol. I'm not arguing against them generally and I'm also not arguing against them in S&W pistols, but in this particular model, it was just a BAD idea.

The Model 745 never got one. The 845, 945 and 3566 Limited and PPC-9 never got them either. I list all of these models as these models specifically were built and marketed as single action target pistols, just like the Model 52. (duly noting that the Model 952 has it, and it's silly here also)

With all other S&W 1-2-3rd Gens, you still have the ability to lower that hammer any time you choose with a simple drop of the decock lever. But the 52 (and all other models I listed) do not have decockers. They all require you to stuff a magazine in an unloaded pistol to lower the hammer.

Honestly, this is ludicrous. If you just bought your first 52, you own two magazines (if you are lucky!) and if you load them up before a range trip, you quite literally have no way whatsoever to lower the hammer of the pistol unless you want to go boldly outside everything that's ever been taught about safe gun handling and stuff a loaded magazine up in to the pistol simply to lower the hammer.

If the magazine disconnect could be disabled without having to drive the rear sight out, I've got four target S&W pistols that I'd be updating tonight.

 

[mikemyers]

.........If the magazine disconnect could be disabled without having to drive the rear sight out, I've got four target S&W pistols that I'd be updating tonight.

You might be in luck - I started two months ago to "drive the rear sight out", until I discovered that it slides in and out very easily once the set screw is loosened. No "driving" required, just "pushing with my fingers", making sure it doesn't go too far, too fast, until I get a finger on top of the spring that goes over the plunger.

In your opinion, if I remove that spring and plunger, will everything work except the magazine disconnect? I'd like the gun to remain stock, but if that would cure my problem, I'd be very tempted!!

 

[Kp321]

I had a M-39 magazine in my extras pile when I bought my 52. It works great to activate the magazine safety for dry fire or at the range. While 39 mags are not cheap, they cost a lot less than 52 mags.