I never liked Cooper's affected use of the "imperial we", as in "We feel that the 9mm is inadequate." Queen Victoria could speak for an empire, Cooper was only speaking for himself.
Charles Askins on the .44 Magnum
- Thread starter Quiet Man
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I never liked Cooper's affected use of the "imperial we", as in "We feel that the 9mm is inadequate." Queen Victoria could speak for an empire, Cooper was only speaking for himself.
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I used to read Jeff Cooper in the '60s. As I look back, I'm unsure why I did that. His dogmatism and the arrogant tone that became a trademark of his work did much to taint the articles, maybe even render them ineffective.
He may have been a good writer, strictly from a mechanical perspective. Maybe his articles would have been better had he written about something other than gunfighting or whatever it was that he thought he was writing about. His "Jeff Cooper style" was severely overdone.
He may have been a good writer, strictly from a mechanical perspective. Maybe his articles would have been better had he written about something other than gunfighting or whatever it was that he thought he was writing about. His "Jeff Cooper style" was severely overdone.
Jack Flash
Member
Mike, did you mean to quote my post?
If so, what was "total bs" about it?
THE PILGRIM
Member
I liked when in WWII, Elmer was a Shotgun tester up at Ogden.
They got an emergency order for immediate shipping of a bunch of shotguns.
More Than they had ready.
So with a team of ladies loading and Elmer nonstop shooting, they got got those shot spitters on the road!
Elmer was bruised and mangled!
But we won the war!
That’s what counts!
They got an emergency order for immediate shipping of a bunch of shotguns.
More Than they had ready.
So with a team of ladies loading and Elmer nonstop shooting, they got got those shot spitters on the road!
Elmer was bruised and mangled!
But we won the war!
That’s what counts!
RobertJ.
Member
I read Cooper from my youth (early 70's), along with Askins, O'Conner, and Elmer Keith, and I'd have to agree with the above. I realize that he did a lot that most of us haven't done, but when reading his work, the phrase "legend in his own mind" comes to mind.
As far as Askins, well, all I will say is that I wouldn't have wanted him shooting at me.
Mike, did you mean to quote my post?
If so, what was "total bs" about it?
No didn't quote. But I would like to see it proved it to us. I lived through the latter part of the .44 introduction era. Never ever saw it. Nobody else did either. No one ever spoke of it either. Only a few gnarly old gun writers used it in there prose to intimidate new shooters..........Guess they'd spazz out with today's 460's & 500's.
Old saying.....Believe nothing you read and only 1/2 of what you see.
Both Atkins Jr & Sr had long arms so they could pat themselves on the back.
One of my favorite gun writers of that era Major George C Nonte.
CCantu357
Member
Bill Jordan, Elmer Keith, and Skeeter Skelton always remain my favorites. I appreciate the influences of Jeff Copper, but he did seem highly opinionated. I don't know much about Aksins, but from what I understand he was controversial to say the least.
I don't know too much about younger current writers, but some of the best gun writers I grew up reading are Massad Ayoob, Bart Skelton, John Taffin, and Sheriff Jim Wilson.
I don't know too much about younger current writers, but some of the best gun writers I grew up reading are Massad Ayoob, Bart Skelton, John Taffin, and Sheriff Jim Wilson.
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Jack Flash
Member
I am having trouble making heads or tails of what you say. You did quote my post. I'm not going to argue about something that is so obvious.
I'm not here to sling BS accusations around so let me just say:
Several folks on this forum have stated that they purchased a lightly used .44 Mag, sometimes with a box of cartridges only missing six. And yes, I have also read it in gun magazines. I suppose it is possible that this is hyperbole.
However, from my own experience, I bought a M29-3 that was in like new condition EXCEPT it looks like it got dropped hard. (The finish had some deep scratches.) Anybody can speculate as to what happened, but it was like new, even the finish, except for the big scratches. Was the recoil too much for a previous owner or was he just really clumsy and dropped it down the stairs? I know this doesn't prove anything, but I do believe a lot of M29s come on the market in like-new condition.
And no, I did not get an almost full box of cartridges with it, but I bought it from Cabela's so who knows where any extras would have gone.
Well, I've had my say.
Our Police Department's duty weapon was the M58, .41 magnum. We were issued 18 (pretty mild) rounds to go with it, 6 in revolver and 12 in our "death dumper" dump pouches. However, you always loaded at least 8-9 in each pouch because you usually dropped 5-6 when reloading, ha.
We had one officer who was a trusted reloader. He loaded up a bunch of "hot" loads for most of us officers (assuming we might have to stop a stampeding bull elephant) so each of us had 20-25 of his "hot" rounds on our person.
Once during roll call we had to dump all our carry rounds into a large box and we were issued new department approved duty ammo. Qualification coming up and we would then shoot up our old factory ammo along with practice rounds.
When we went to the range we grabbed our rounds out of the box and onto the firing line. Just about everyone got a couple of the "hot" loads and they really hurt. We were flinching so bad that we would almost take a half step forward each round fired , ha.
Officer next to me fired one of the "hot" rounds and literally threw his M58 on the ground in front of him while he grabbed his gun hand with the other, rubbing it to relieve the pain. I bet his M58 had a few scratches on it also.
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I have the Ruger New Model Super Blackhawk .44 Magnum and S&W's
model 29 .44 Magnum. I like to shoot both of them. I've never been
bothered by recoil. Just call me crazy.
model 29 .44 Magnum. I like to shoot both of them. I've never been
bothered by recoil. Just call me crazy.
"Speak what you think today in hard words and tomorrow speak
what tomorrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradicts
every thing you said today." Ralph Waldo Emerson
If you don't lock your elbows and grip the gun tight and just let the gun recoil back it's not bothersome at all to me. What's bothersome is the blast, so I don't own my beautiful 1979, 6-1/2" boxed M-29 anymore but I do miss looking at it.
THE PILGRIM
Member
OK! If you insist!
Phil - You’re CRAZY!
I have to admit, I don’t seem to handle recoil like I used to.
Back in the 1970s I had a Ruger Super Blackhawk (44M) My BIL about age 19 wanted to fire it so I let him. You have to understand he was a know it all wise guy on just about everything. Let him shoot a couple rounds of 44 special and he seemed to do all right with it.
Put 1 mag in (he knew he had a Mag load to fire and had watched me fire others) and indexed the cylinder around so that he could cock the hammer and fire. Well he did not listen to me and was not locked up good and the recoil brought the gun straight up back and clocked him right across the forehead. I just reached over grabbed the now unloaded gun by the barrel and returned it to my possession. Head wounds bleed real good, he was not knocked out but a bit wobbly, after a while it stocked bleeding. He took some Excedrin's for a while and all was well. Good thing it hit him in the head and not some place vital.
After that I never let him shoot a gun of mine again.
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After many years of shooting a variety of .44 Magnum revolvers (all S&Ws except for one Ruger single action), I don't know if that is generally good advice or not. I suppose it depends on the individual like many other shooting concerns. We all feel and handle recoil differently. It's probably a poor idea for a beginner to shoot a heavy kicking handgun (or rifle), but many of us have performed this stupid act, once anyway.
Decades of shooting .44 Magnums has only confirmed my belief that they recoil heavily with full power loads, even the longer-barreled guns. That doesn't mean one can't learn to shoot them well. I no longer shoot any magnum revolvers and couldn't imagine shooting something with a heavier kick than a .44 Magnum.
BLACKHAWKNJ
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Askins said several times his editors told him to write provocative articles to stir up interest-and get readers to to write. I recall one he wrote "The Sixgun is a Clunker !" which resulted in a "rebuttal" article by Bill Jordan who pointed out that Charlie did all his man hunting with revolvers.
Skeeter Skelton summed up Charlie best when he said he really didn't care how others felt about him.
Skeeter Skelton summed up Charlie best when he said he really didn't care how others felt about him.
As to the recoil of the 44 magnum, Mrs. Raljr1, before she became so, weighed 100 lbs soaking wet. She fired a cylinder full of factory magnums from my friends model 29. Only problem she had was rounds 5 and 6 landed well short of the target, strictly due to the weight of that 8-3/8 barreled N frame...
cowboy4evr
Member
I was 10 , a tall skinny kid with long skinny arms when I shot my first 44 magnum , a 7.5" barrel Ruger Blackhawk . My uncle had the gun , asked me if I wanted to shot it , " well yeahhh " . I didn't know any better ( guess I had watched too many westerns ) , anyway I one hand shot it , arm slightly extended . The recoil brought the barrel up and over in an arc and whacked me hard on top of the head . Half dazed , I looked at my uncle , who with a sly grin says , " Do it again " ! Well ok I replied still a bit dazed . The second shot had the same results and put my flat on the ground . I have had numerous 44's and still have 3 . Guess my first experience didn't diminish my love for the caliber . Regards, Paul
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Texas Star
US Veteran
Cooper had at least killed men. I think only he and Askins, among well known gun writers, did.
I have a letter from Cooper detailing the three cases when he shot men.
I know a man who shot 14-15 men with 9mm pistols in Iraq. He says that even military hardball works better than reputed, IF the soldier can shoot a handgun well. I've tried repeatedly to get him to write about his war experiences, but he says that they're "too close" now. Maybe someday. He's been wounded several times and had some pretty traumatic experiences. But he's killed more men with a handgun than any writer I've known. And he can also write better than most. He did contribute a discussion of the Battle of Hastings to an Arms and Armour site. And owns swords of Roman spatha and Renaissance rapier style. These are serious swords, not mall shop Ninja junk.
BTW, David W. Arnold also told me that the 9mm worked pretty well on terrorists in Rhodesia. He was a senior police superintendent, in a position to know.
That said, David preferred the Colt .45 auto for his non official use and the other man uses both 9mm and .45's now, with Federal HST ammo. He wishes he'd had JHP's in Iraq, but they were banned by the Hague Accords.
I have a letter from Cooper detailing the three cases when he shot men.
I know a man who shot 14-15 men with 9mm pistols in Iraq. He says that even military hardball works better than reputed, IF the soldier can shoot a handgun well. I've tried repeatedly to get him to write about his war experiences, but he says that they're "too close" now. Maybe someday. He's been wounded several times and had some pretty traumatic experiences. But he's killed more men with a handgun than any writer I've known. And he can also write better than most. He did contribute a discussion of the Battle of Hastings to an Arms and Armour site. And owns swords of Roman spatha and Renaissance rapier style. These are serious swords, not mall shop Ninja junk.
BTW, David W. Arnold also told me that the 9mm worked pretty well on terrorists in Rhodesia. He was a senior police superintendent, in a position to know.
That said, David preferred the Colt .45 auto for his non official use and the other man uses both 9mm and .45's now, with Federal HST ammo. He wishes he'd had JHP's in Iraq, but they were banned by the Hague Accords.
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Yep.........Hyperbole. Always was........In the statement why was it ALWAYS 6 cartridges missing?.......Kinda like a fairy tale. Which it was.
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