Is the 40 S&W a must have cartridge?

[italiansport]

IMO Bottom line on the 40. A very formidable cartridge and one I have no problem carrying. Out of "political" favor in some groups particularly after the FBI dropped it. Their reason given was some of their agents couldn't handle the recoil and the new 9mm is just as good.. This is my understanding as to why some police depts don't issue it along with the 45acp.

 

[Echo40]

I think you missed the point. If I need to get into a fight - I take a rifle.
The wimpy pistol is something I have with me out of convenience, since I'm likely to have it with me when I need it.
All wimpy pistol cartridges are much the same.

It's amazing how such a demonstrably false, grossly exaggerated sentiment could be so massively overstated in an age in which information is so readily available.

Common sense alone should be sufficient evidence to the contrary given the fact that pistols are still employed by law enforcement and most often serves as the defacto primary weapon of police officers.

 

[jim lock]

IMHO--- It AIN'T the caliber ---- Its the perfect sight alignment, sight picture and trigger control that's important.

 

[Rubone]

I like the .40 just fine. My guns are accurate and I can shoot them well. And I find the nonsense about recoil laughable. I never have noticed it and follow up is no issue. And ammo is everywhere and not expensive. I recently bought 1000 rounds for a 1 cent difference from 9mm in bulk. I consider the penny well spent!

And there are many calibers in the mix for me, so plenty of variety to compare.

 

[dla]

It's amazing how such a demonstrably false, grossly exaggerated sentiment could be so massively overstated in an age in which information is so readily available.

Common sense alone should be sufficient evidence to the contrary given the fact that pistols are still employed by law enforcement and most often serves as the defacto primary weapon of police officers.

Anytime a Cop has to get into a fight, (except on TV), they either grab their rifle/shotgun, call for plenty of backup, and likely call in SWAT. And SWAT uses rifles.
Nobody with a working brain runs into a fight with a handgun if they have the option of a rifle.

 

[rockquarry]

Anytime a Cop has to get into a fight, (except on TV), they either grab their rifle/shotgun, call for plenty of backup, and likely call in SWAT. And SWAT uses rifles.
Nobody with a working brain runs into a fight with a handgun if they have the option of a rifle.

With regard to your absolute certainty, it would seem your comments were based on your law enforcement experience and surely not on something that you know nothing about.

Again, with your experience in the forefront, you might consider that on occasion (perhaps on many occasions), police officers, even ones "with working brains" might find themselves in situations where they have no access to rifles or shotguns.

Nothing to argue here, just looking at things as they often are.

 

[Sevens]

Pointless arguing of terminology isn't productive and it does this forum a disservice. Cops (and citizens who legally carry) don't go anywhere specifically to fight. Armed conflict is a tiny slice of an officer's career, by and large, and police that specifically respond to armed conflict (SWAT) go equipped like soldiers. And soldiers don't go anywhere without a rifle.

Yes, compared to a rifle, EVERY duty, service, defense and concealed carry handgun round is CHUMP, and these handguns are only employed because it isn't practical to be saddled with a long gun all the time when you aren't a soldier who is prepared for war.

 

[oddshooter]

Sevens,
I'm with you.
"Pointless arguing of terminology isn't productive and it does this forum a disservice."
Some caliber wars are interesting and educational. This isn't one.

Prescut

 

[Erocksmash]

.40cal.... I loved the .40 S&W until I learned about the 10mm and how .40 S&W was born of it.... then all my .40s went to the back seat sold most of them off... until last night I got my first ever "shorty" at first it was meh... but then the more I think of it as the day goes on its probably the most accurate pistol I own... shoot what you shoot best... I dont think the target/ badguy cares if its getting shot with a .40 or a .22 a 10mm or .45acp if its accurate and good to you then use it..

 

[fredj338]

A must have, no. A nice tweener, sure. I like the 40 in a full size pistol, in a compact or sub I prefer a 9mm, just easier to get good/fast hits with. The 40 offers more bullet mass in a smaller pistol than most 45. Though my xd45C is the same size as a G23. In my 10rd state, it's a push. I will always be a 45 fan but with todays better 9mm JHP, it does just fine.

 

[crazyphil]

Back in 2002 Ed Sanow had an article in GUNS & AMMO ANNUAL titled
Top Ten Self Defense Loads. He ranked the loads according to their
One Shot Stops.

With an astounding 97% one shot stops, number one among self defense
bullet and caliber combinations is the Federal .40 S&W 155-Gr. Hydra-Shok.
Number 2 at 96% was Federal's .357 Magnum 125-Gr. JHP.
At number 3, actually a tie with number 2, was the Federal .45 ACP 230-Gr. Hydra-Shok.

I bought a Glock model 22 and some of those Federal 155-Gr. Hydra-Shoks.
Found them to be very accurate. Never had the need to proove
the one-shot stop claim (fortunately).

My granddaughter liked the Glock, so I gave it to her, along with a few
of it's holsters. Shown below, left to right.
Glock model 22 .40
Galco Cop holster
Galco NSA IWB
Ross Driver's crossdraw
Aker Yaqui slide

 

[fredj338]

Back in 2002 Ed Sanow had an article in GUNS & AMMO ANNUAL titled
Top Ten Self Defense Loads. He ranked the loads according to their
One Shot Stops.

With an astounding 97% one shot stops, number one among self defense
bullet and caliber combinations is the Federal .40 S&W 155-Gr. Hydra-Shok.
Number 2 at 96% was Federal's .357 Magnum 125-Gr. JHP.
At number 3, actually a tie with number 2, was the Federal .45 ACP 230-Gr. Hydra-Shok.

I bought a Glock model 22 and some of those Federal 155-Gr. Hydra-Shoks.
Found them to be very accurate. Never had the need to proove
the one-shot stop claim (fortunately).

My granddaughter liked the Glock, so I gave it to her, along with a few
of it's holsters. Shown below, left to right.
Glock model 22 .40
Galco Cop holster
Galco NSA IWB
Ross Driver's crossdraw
Aker Yaqui slide

First you have to believe in the one shot stop mythology, everything has failed at one time or another with solid COM hits. All handgun rds, all 12ga loads & many rifle rounds have all failed to deliver a one shot stop at some point. Even if the OSS were true, one still has to be able to deliver the solid COM hit. A G22 is a manageable pistol for that, a G27, not so much. Everything is bullet & shot placement specific. A good 9mm JHP is better than a mediocre 40 JHP or even 45. So it comes back to what you can deliver fast accurate good hits with.

 

[Echo40]

First you have to believe in the one shot stop mythology, everything has failed at one time or another with solid COM hits. All handgun rds, all 12ga loads & many rifle rounds have all failed to deliver a one shot stop at some point. Even if the OSS were true, one still has to be able to deliver the solid COM hit. A G22 is a manageable pistol for that, a G27, not so much. Everything is bullet & shot placement specific. A good 9mm JHP is better than a mediocre 40 JHP or even 45. So it comes back to what you can deliver fast accurate good hits with.

I would very much like to see a documented case in which someone took a shot from a .460/.500 S&W Magnum or a 12 Gauge Magnum Slug center mass and kept on coming.

Seriously, I have no difficulty believing that most handgun, rifle, and to a lesser extent shotgun shells loaded with buckshot can fail to result in a one-shot-stop, but I find it hard to believe that some of the largest caliber magnum handguns, shotgun slugs, and especially large caliber rifles have failed to immediately end a fight by means of incapacitation or death.

So if anyone could provide links to some articles involving cases in which a criminal took a center mass blast from big bore magnum handguns, shotgun slugs, or big bore rifles yet persisted in attacking.
Honestly, that would be an eye-opening experience.

That being said, it is to my understanding that the closest thing to a one-shot-stop which can be had without scoring a direct hit to the brainstem is a shot to the pelvis with a bullet powerful enough to break it, because obviously this makes them physically incapable of standing/walking.

 

[sodacan]

A worthless caliber like 45 GAP and 41 magnum. Save your money.

 

[Groo01]

Groo here
If you get a good price and it fits you ,,,get it.
It will make a good 357sig!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I started with a 239 in 357sig and got a 9mm barrel for cheap
range work.
The 357 sig is much like the 357 mag , easy to hit with even at longer
ranges, and hits hard.
I have 3 glocks ,a springfield XD, and an EAA witness gold team.
All are 357sig but the Gold team as it is the ONLY 40 to shoot good groups...

 

[Univibe]

I would very much like to see a documented case in which someone took a shot from a .460/.500 S&W Magnum or a 12 Gauge Magnum Slug center mass and kept on coming.

Seriously, I have no difficulty believing that most handgun, rifle, and to a lesser extent shotgun shells loaded with buckshot can fail to result in a one-shot-stop, but I find it hard to believe that some of the largest caliber magnum handguns, shotgun slugs, and especially large caliber rifles have failed to immediately end a fight by means of incapacitation or death.

So if anyone could provide links to some articles involving cases in which a criminal took a center mass blast from big bore magnum handguns, shotgun slugs, or big bore rifles yet persisted in attacking.
Honestly, that would be an eye-opening experience.

That being said, it is to my understanding that the closest thing to a one-shot-stop which can be had without scoring a direct hit to the brainstem is a shot to the pelvis with a bullet powerful enough to break it, because obviously this makes them physically incapable of standing/walking.

There is no such thing as a one-shot stop, unless the bullet penetrates the cranium or severs the spinal column.

A center mass shot results in a stomach wound, which, while painful, need not incapacitate a determined attacker.

A shot that breaks the pelvis puts the bad guy on the ground, but he can still empty his magazine into you.

A shot to the heart or aorta is close to a one-shot stop, but they still have 10 or 15 seconds in which they can do nasty things to you, like empty their magazine into you.

A shot through the heart with a .500 S&W Magnum doesn't make you any deader, any quicker, than a shot through the heart with a 9mm FMJ. How could it? It's a hole in the heart either way.

Once you quit thinking about "energy" and "ballistics" and start studying physiology, much becomes clear.

 

[Echo40]

-SNIP-

A shot through the heart with a .500 S&W Magnum doesn't make you any deader, any quicker, than a shot through the heart with a 9mm FMJ. How could it? It's a hole in the heart either way.

Once you quit thinking about "energy" and "ballistics" and start studying physiology, much becomes clear.

Would you mind posting some links to verify this?

You've spoken of actual street data verifying your claims before, so surely you must have some actual verification comparing a shot to the heart with a .500 S&W Magnum JHP and a 9mm Luger FMJ, right?

Because I would sincerely like to read an article detailing such a comparison.

Please enlighten me.

 

[Groo01]

Groo here
Univibe is correct in a way.
Total blood pressure loss will cause unconscienceness in 8 to 10 sec
Regardless of the amount of damage [o2 left in the brain] done to the body.[ double tap/full auto/ buck shot -same-same]
Shot to the CNS is lights out.
BUT the third stop is a mental one [aka "I quit" , "I been shot" , "No mas" etc] .
This is usually caused by shock to the system aka Pain...
It can't be measured, or counted on but is the one that most often works.
We are a product of millions of years of natural selection and can withstand a great deal more damage [at least in the short term] then most would think.
The numbers from the 1990s I was taught were:
less than 1% of the people shot at were hit [pistol] less than 1% of those had a life threating wound, [aka could not be fixed with bandage]
less than 1% of those died.
And of the ones shot in the heart --- 1/3 made a full recovery.
SO -- that "I give up!" thing must be working...

 

[29aholic]

In the 8 to 10 seconds it takes to lose conscious a lot of damage can be done. Especially when you figure in shock.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

 

[Farmer17]

For the center mass/chest hit with 12 gauge double OO buck it’s darn near always a one shot stop but I have heard of one case where it wasn’t but I don’t know how accurate the data is.