The 125 grain JHP load was really hot and loud and not easily controlled except by officers that liked to practice a lot on their own time. Something like a 158 grain SWC hollow point at about 1250 fps would seem like the ideal police .357 round to me.
Smith, Bill Jordan Got It Wrong
- Thread starter UncleEd
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RoninPhx
Member
i carried a model 19 on a s.o. for about seven years. we had to buy our own guns at the time. choice was a colt, smith, or ruger. couldn't afford the colt, so i bought the smith. I still have the revolver. I have fired thousands of thousands of 38special through it, maybe two boxes of magnums in it's lifetime. I much later bought a model 28 with the idea i wanted a heavier built gun to fire hot .357mag loads. Which it does. But carrying that for a while, i think keith and skelton were genius with the 19. That 28 gets old pulling your pants down with all the other stuff you packed too. i don't shoot either one any more going over to the dark side with hicap semiauto's, but my opinion the 19 was and is one of the best handling revolvers ever made for shootability, balance, and comfort. i never did get into that 125grain bullet camp, most all of mine were 158grain. few years ago i cast up some keith style lead bullets in 160 grain and 170 grain. they would crack river rocks firing into them.
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gwpercle
Member
The great thing about hindsight is it's 20-20 .
Go back to that point and time . Most law enforcement practiced with 38 special . Shot a few 357 magnums and carried them in duty revolvers . My best friends Dad was LEO back in 1960's , we would go to range and watch them practice / qualify it was all done with 38 specials . Then at the end the men would fire 12 rounds of 357 magnums and call it a day . I know because I watched this happen many Saturday mornings and our dept was probably just like many others . They didn't waste 357 Magnum ammo because it was expensive at that time .
It's easy to make perfect decisions when you have history to look back on ... but when you can't see the crystal clear future your decision making is dependent on an educated guess at best .
At that time the model 19 was perfect , I would love to have one today !
Gary
Go back to that point and time . Most law enforcement practiced with 38 special . Shot a few 357 magnums and carried them in duty revolvers . My best friends Dad was LEO back in 1960's , we would go to range and watch them practice / qualify it was all done with 38 specials . Then at the end the men would fire 12 rounds of 357 magnums and call it a day . I know because I watched this happen many Saturday mornings and our dept was probably just like many others . They didn't waste 357 Magnum ammo because it was expensive at that time .
It's easy to make perfect decisions when you have history to look back on ... but when you can't see the crystal clear future your decision making is dependent on an educated guess at best .
At that time the model 19 was perfect , I would love to have one today !
Gary
"But carrying that for a while, i think keith and skelton were genius with the 19."
Elmer had little use for any .357 and he never claimed any input towards the Combat Magnum. Skeeter did carry the Combat Magnum (M19), but preferred the M27. He never claimed, in any of his writings that I have ever read, to have any influence in the design of the Combat Magnum.
Elmer had little use for any .357 and he never claimed any input towards the Combat Magnum. Skeeter did carry the Combat Magnum (M19), but preferred the M27. He never claimed, in any of his writings that I have ever read, to have any influence in the design of the Combat Magnum.
Jim Watson
Member
And just think now we have hot rod 110Gr 357Magnum. Is the 586 and 686 up to a steady diet of those?
You can get real hot rod 110 gr Magnums from specialty loaders like Double Tap, but standard brand 110 like WWB is actually lower velocity than most 125s. It is the cheap stuff. Lots of flash and blast, not a whole lot of recoil. Darned stuff was very accurate in a friend's Taurus, 10 ring group at 50 yards Ransom Rest.
Back in the day, my friend's brother being a little older was into hand loading. He used to use some 90 gr, .355 9mm bullets in a 357. No idea what he loaded, but it was impressive to see at dusk
Jim Watson
Member
Smith & Wesson brand ammo offered a 90 gr .357 at high velocity.
Said to be semi-armor piercing from sheer velocity without hard metal bullet. French Arcane and GTV were early players in the fast copper bullet market.
Said to be semi-armor piercing from sheer velocity without hard metal bullet. French Arcane and GTV were early players in the fast copper bullet market.
BLACKHAWKNJ
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I wouldn't say they got it wrong so much as it seemed like a great idea at the the time-like the 41 Magnum-then subsequent experience revealed its shortcomings. Jeff Cooper pushed training only with carry ammunition and as his influence grew the need for a more robust .357 revolver became apparent. Since Bill Jordan was obviously an S&W man-the Colt .357 was introduced at the same time but he didn't take to that-the Model 19 seemed like the quickest and most effective answer to the question he posed.
Back in the day I loaded hot .357s with 88gr 380/9mm bullets. They were impressive. I never really found any bullet remains when shooting stuff. They pretty much vaporized. But they were just for fun and I shot them out of a 6" 686.
Actually mostly I carried a 6" 629 until they finally wouldn't supply ammo for it any more.
I still say the best all around cop duty revolver was the 19/66. The best balance, performance, weight sweet spot. I figured if I wanted to carry a heavier gun I might as well carry more bullet. Thus the 44.
BLACKHAWKNJ
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Bill Jordan also stated that the 38 Special was the most powerful round the average man-i.e. most of us-could hope to master.
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In addition, the problem of the 6:00 o'clock thin section of the barrel shank only became a problem when the 125 grain/1,400 fps loads hit LE holsters.
No one that I know of who used 158 grain magnums ever had trouble.
That makes sense as the issue is the tiny fraction of a second dwell time that it takes for the entire length of the bullet to clear the barrel/cylinder gap.
Apparently, the shorter length of the 125 grain and under bullet weights left the barrel/cylinder gap unsealed by the bullet itself for just enough time less than the longer bullets that the temperature of the flame was just too much.
That is the reason that the FBI and others went to bullets of no less than 145 grains. The extra length kept the barrel/cylinder gap sealed just that tiny fraction of a second longer so as to make the flame cutting and ultimate damage not a problem.
Continuous use of magnums in the K frame was just not an issue for anyone who stayed with 140 and above. Of course, by the time it was figured out, guns were destroyed, and some people never got the message.
When Bill Jordan proposed the idea of the K frame magnum, it was thought that magnums (158 grains) would be used for carry and qualification only. All other practice would be with 38 target wadcutters.
So, it took a combination of all practice with magnums and the 125 grain at 1,400 fps to cause the issue.
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I like the post, except for the bold bit.
From a thermodynamics perspective, the small amount of plasma that might beat the bullet to the forcing cone doesn't have enough time to act on the the forcing cone and heat it to any significant degree. The short bullet explanation sounds great on the surface, but it just doesn't hold up when you apply some science to it.
Additional heat however is the issue. Let's look at Hornady XTP data for different bullet weights using Hodgdon H-110/Win 296, and Alliant 2400.
Maximum loads of H-110 (a colloidal ball powder):
- 180 gr XTP, 13.1 grains
- 158 gr XTP, 15.6 grains
- 140 gr XTP, 18.4 grains
- 125 gr XTP, 19.9 grains
In this case, the 125 gr load has 28% more powder than the 158 gr load.
Maximum loads of 2400 (a flattened spherical powder)
- 180 gr XTP, 12.6 grains
- 158 gr XTP, 14.3 grains
- 140 gr XTP, 15.5 grains
- 125 gr XTP, 16.9 grains
- 110 gr XTP, 18.8 grains
In this case, the 125 gr load has just 18% more powder than the 158 gr load.
The point here is that the hot loads with 125 gr bullets have significantly more slow burning powder that flows through the forcing cone in a partially burnt and abrasive state along with a larger amount of hot plasma and with significantly more heat.
The increased heat from the larger powder charge, applied to the forcing cone, along with the larger amount of partially burnt powder flowing through the forcing cone with that plasma produces significantly more erosion of the forcing cone.
That erosion creates "v" shaped cuts in the forcing cone and those V shaped cuts are stress risers. Since the forcing cone is thinner where it has been milled flat, that area is more susceptible to cracking.
In short, it's not the shorter bullet, but rather a combination of 1) a larger charge of a 2) slower burning colloidal ball powder, used with the lighter weight bullet.
If you look at the data above, you'll also note the absence of an H-110 charge for a 110 grain bullet. Those slow burning colloidal ball powders are not efficient with a 110 gr bullet, and despite it's even shorter length, you don't hear about cracked forcing cones due to 110 grain loads.
Find my old post......The often repeated "lore" of the 125 gr bullet is just that fiction not fact. In my old post the FC cracked on my 19 and ALL it ever got was cast lead bullets.......Guess ya'll got to blame it on something.
I'm sure there were a lot of isolated cases like yours.But the wide spread issue that brought attention to stay away if possible were the 125 gr semi JHP. I could see the affect with that round on both my 27's and 586 ,at least with flame cutting was concerned.
Art Doc
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
My 19-3 has fired over 19,000 rounds of full power 125 JHP Magnums. Now J frames are made in 357 Magnum. Forgive me if I don't worry about shooting K frame 357s.
REALLY? WOW!!!
Real detectives of the day had an option to use the 32 long in many cases. Stopping power was mainly concerned with how it effected non combatants.
bmcgilvray
Member
I once did some pretty mean things to two different 4-inch Model 19s I owned, experimentally hand loading various concoctions for .357 Magnum. Later read that Model 19s are wilting violets of the .357 Magnum world. I had to be told that for I never had trouble loading mild to wild ammunition using 110 grain bullets or 158 grain bullets.
I'm willing to use full-powered 158 grain hand loads in the current Model 19 here. I went off light bullet high-velocity .357 Magnum loads years ago as being overrated.
I'm willing to use full-powered 158 grain hand loads in the current Model 19 here. I went off light bullet high-velocity .357 Magnum loads years ago as being overrated.
S&WsRsweet
Member
Man as usual you guys bring the knowledge to a higher level.
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