elpac3
Member
Used to have a key stitched into the clip on tie, one sewn into the cuff on the pants and one sewn into the back waistband of the uniform pants - "just in case"
Dumpers?
- Thread starter JayFramer
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Used to have a key stitched into the clip on tie, one sewn into the cuff on the pants and one sewn into the back waistband of the uniform pants - "just in case"
jimgoldth
US Veteran
The other night I was watching The Andy Griffith Show (1960?) and according to the story line Deputy Barney Fife was only allowed one .38 Special round that he had to keep in his shirt pocket but his gun belt always had 2 6 round ammo pouches. (for candy maybe?)
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Our uniform leather gear included the double-dump pouch. In 1974 an officer was reloading in the midst of a gunfight when he was shot by the suspect. The suspect was killed by other officers, but this issue of the leather gear was never addressed.
Read up on the Newhall shooting.
Officer James Pence was shot while loading the sixth round in his revolver when an assailant flanked his position and shot him. He may well have survived it he had been using a speed loader, or even a speed strip. He also would have potentially survived if he had not been focused on a full reload in the limited time available.
Tactically speaking a dump pouch was the worst of everything. Once the rounds were dumped in your hand it was load them or drop them - and not many officers in a situation that needed a reload were going to be very interested in dropping some of their limited number of rounds on the ground.
With a speed strip, loading 2 rounds and getting back in the fight is a better option that keeps the remaining 4 rounds on a speed strip that can be dropped in a pocket or stuffed under your belt. Assuming you properly index the cylinder( under extreme stress) it gets you back in the fight quickly - albeit with just 2 more shots.
A speed loader is vastly superior as it is as fast as loading 2 rounds with a speed strip and is ultimately faster as indexing the cylinder is reduced to just rotating it until the bolt engages a notch on the cylinder. The caveat is that you do need to practice with it to ensure you don't accidently dump the rounds (and some speed loaders are worse than others in this regard).
IMHO, the admin staff who prevented officers from carrying speedloaders effectively killed a fair number of officers back in the day, and after the Newhall shooting that kind of bureaucratic inertia was should have been treated as both willful and criminal negligence.
Officer James Pence was shot while loading the sixth round in his revolver when an assailant flanked his position and shot him. He may well have survived it he had been using a speed loader, or even a speed strip. He also would have potentially survived if he had not been focused on a full reload in the limited time available.
Tactically speaking a dump pouch was the worst of everything. Once the rounds were dumped in your hand it was load them or drop them - and not many officers in a situation that needed a reload were going to be very interested in dropping some of their limited number of rounds on the ground.
With a speed strip, loading 2 rounds and getting back in the fight is a better option that keeps the remaining 4 rounds on a speed strip that can be dropped in a pocket or stuffed under your belt. Assuming you properly index the cylinder( under extreme stress) it gets you back in the fight quickly - albeit with just 2 more shots.
A speed loader is vastly superior as it is as fast as loading 2 rounds with a speed strip and is ultimately faster as indexing the cylinder is reduced to just rotating it until the bolt engages a notch on the cylinder. The caveat is that you do need to practice with it to ensure you don't accidently dump the rounds (and some speed loaders are worse than others in this regard).
IMHO, the admin staff who prevented officers from carrying speedloaders effectively killed a fair number of officers back in the day, and after the Newhall shooting that kind of bureaucratic inertia was should have been treated as both willful and criminal negligence.
Frank46
US Veteran
I used to live in Jamaica NY Queens county. Back in the mid to late 60's after I got off active duty and transferred to the inactive reserve still lived there. Our local station house was the 114 Pct. Many times while shopping I noticed a lot of police officers still carrying spare cartridges 12 rounds in the cartridge slides. And over the years transition to dump pouches. then got married and moved to Elmont,Long Island. I picked up a couple cartridge or belt slides to carry a few extra rounds for one of my Marlin 1894 in 38 special and 357 magnum. Most likely picked them up at a local gun show. No longer live in NY as we moved to Louisiana. Frank
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just plain joe
Member
Lots of good info on this thread, especially post number 29.
When I came on the job in June '77, we were authorized either dump pouches or cartridge loops that carried .38 Special cartridges. Most of the old-timers never changed their ammo or cleaned/oiled their revolvers. I heard stories of non-functional weapons/ammo during the quals.
My goals were to get my fellow officers (and me) home at the end of the shift and to retire from the job. Prior to authorization of speed-loaders, the best I could attain was the use of the Safariland dump-pouch with the plastic liners that permitted the cartridges to fall freely when the pouch was tilted downward. I removed the liners that squared-off the pouch contours. This permitted the insertion of six cartridges held by a Bianchi speed strip. When reloading, all cartridges came out at once and were pointed in one direction making life much easier. As was pointed out in post #29, the speed strips did crack with wear/age and would not securely hold all cartridges. The solution was to inspect them and replace as necessary.
We then moved into the twentieth century with the authorization of speed loaders. I preferred the Safariland brand and still have my original ones. I utilize one of the newer ones when carrying my Model 13 3" when necessity/dress dictates.
There has been lots of discussion on how best to reload a partially depleted revolver when using either a speed strip or a speed loader. That's another discussion for another day.
Sorry for being late to this dance.
JPJ
When I came on the job in June '77, we were authorized either dump pouches or cartridge loops that carried .38 Special cartridges. Most of the old-timers never changed their ammo or cleaned/oiled their revolvers. I heard stories of non-functional weapons/ammo during the quals.
My goals were to get my fellow officers (and me) home at the end of the shift and to retire from the job. Prior to authorization of speed-loaders, the best I could attain was the use of the Safariland dump-pouch with the plastic liners that permitted the cartridges to fall freely when the pouch was tilted downward. I removed the liners that squared-off the pouch contours. This permitted the insertion of six cartridges held by a Bianchi speed strip. When reloading, all cartridges came out at once and were pointed in one direction making life much easier. As was pointed out in post #29, the speed strips did crack with wear/age and would not securely hold all cartridges. The solution was to inspect them and replace as necessary.
We then moved into the twentieth century with the authorization of speed loaders. I preferred the Safariland brand and still have my original ones. I utilize one of the newer ones when carrying my Model 13 3" when necessity/dress dictates.
There has been lots of discussion on how best to reload a partially depleted revolver when using either a speed strip or a speed loader. That's another discussion for another day.
Sorry for being late to this dance.
JPJ
VaTom
Member
Went through LEO Basic in 1976. We carried Model 10's (nickel) and drop pouches. This is how we were trained to load (for right handers). Drop pouch on right side of duty belt. Hold the revolver in left hand with two middle fingers around cylinder (see picture). Use thumb to eject empty casings and to turn cylinder while loading bullets with right hand. Keep muzzle pointed downward and down range with left shoulder pointed towards target (standing sideways to target) makes yourself a smaller target. During qualification we had six in revolver, twelve in drop pouches and the remainder in right pants pocket. Holding the revolver this way you are less likely to drop it and harder for a bad guy to take it away. Have seen many folks load revolvers all sorts of ways. Recently took my nephew and brother to range. Nephew never shot a revolver and brother very rarely. Taught them this method. Still use this method after all these years!
Attachments
The problem is three fold.
First, in order to use gravity to your advantage you need to have the muzzle pointed down, and in this position you are already virtually in a wrist lock. The assailant just has to grab it by the grip and then twist it towards himself. You'll be forced down and forward by the resulting wrist lock, or you'll release the weapon. You lose either way.
Second, in order to keep the revolver close to vertical, you have to lean forward. Between that, and needing to individually load each round in the cylinder, it's virtually impossible to keep your eye on the assailant and maintain situational awareness. The officer shot in the Newhall shooting during the reload was killed as much or more by the loss of situational awareness as he was by the slow reload.
Third, holding a revolver that way works well enough with .38 Special, but 6 or 7 rounds of .357 Magnum will leave the forcing cone hot enough to burn your middle finger when held that way. Officers have indeed dropped their service revolvers for exactly that reason.
The loss of SA and the potential for putting yourself at risk of a wrist lock were two of the primary reasons for the Stress Fire Reload with the hot forcing cone issue encountered in the FBI and Universal reloads running a tight third. In the Stress Fire reload, you hold the gun vertically and hold the cylinder open with the thumb on your right hand between the cylinder and frame while striking the ejector rod with your left hand. It ensures a straight shot on the ejector rod with no finger in the way to shorten the stroke.
You then place the revolver muzzle down in your left hand, with the thumb wrapped around the ejector rod to keep the cylinder open and the revolver supported on the other side by your fingers. This eliminates the near wrist lock position and allows you to keep your head up and your eyes on the assailant.
It also assumes the use of a speed loader, but it also works (slower) with a speed strip.
Loading single rounds in any manner will require hand eye coordination that requires you to look down at the cylinder and lose situational awareness.
Feel free to load anyway you like but God help you if you ever need to load single rounds in a fight.
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VaTom
Member
Good points! Have to keep in mind that way was taught to us 43 years ago. Range officers were senior officers who came up through the ranks in the 1950s and 60s. A lot of better techniques for combat shooting have been developed over the years. Always taught to try and seek cover when reloading. At that time (1970s) LEO basic was only 10 weeks (400 hrs) in Va. It is double that of more these days. I
Thanks!
Thanks!
jcs266
Member
In March 1985 this is also how I was taught to hold the gun and use a speed-loader. It was a secure grip on the gun during the reload and ejection with the thumb was very positive as you reached for the speed-loader pouch on the right side of the belt.
jscott
Member
Bi monthly range visits for this retiree always include a revolver segment. Youngsters next to me asked what my speed loaders were for. Times change. Anyway, I found the left thumb ejection to sometimes not be enough to dislodge a sticky empty casing. One hard strike with right palm never fails. Also learned to shoot 2 and reload 2 from a 2x2x2 pouch. Got lots of autos, but my 4" M19 saved my butt many times.
jimgoldth
US Veteran
Looking through my stuff I found a modified dump pouch that I had almost forgotten. As a police officer I sometimes worked plain clothes details in the 1980s and my plain clothes duty revolver was this S&W model 13, 3" modified to DA only. I modified the 2 pouch Bucheimer Dumper by cutting it in half. I had a 6 round reload with a Bianchi Speed Strip. The IWB soft green leather Safariland holster held the model 13 out of sight.
Anyone use the old dumper pouches?
I read police for many years, some clear up through the 80s, used these pouches that dump a load of cartridges in your palm so you can reload your cylinder one round at a time.
Quite frankly, that sounds like a fumbly nightmare to me. I could not imagine running dry in a gunfight and having to use one of these pouches. Even more shocking is some large departments like NYPD used these as recently as 30 years ago when revolvers fell out of favor in LEO circles.
What are yalls thoughts on these dump pouches? Anyone ever used one on duty, or God forbid, have to reload under stress with in? Just curious.
Thanks!
-Jay
I think I would prefer an old fashion loop gunbelt to that thing.
jscott
Member
Jim Goldth, love that rig. Old School gun fighter set up. Would still work.
Gene L
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I started in 71 as well, and I'm not sure speed loaders had been invented then. I never saw any if they had. In 77 or so we had dump pouches, but I don't remember speed strips. I started using speed loaders when I started shooting PPC. The best way to reload, not the most concealable when you need to conceal.
texmex
Member
I went through the police academy in 1974. Most officers back then had 12 extra rounds in loops. I was a gun guy so I had HKS speed loaders. The 12 round cartridge loop carrier tookup about 9 or 10 inches on the belt. We were all skinnier back then so for some of the guys, trying to fit 2 pairs of cuffs, a radio, holster and ammo just about used up all the space. The 2 HKS speed loaders held 12 rounds and only took up about 5 inches. My nearest backup was 25 miles and a ferry ride away. In addition to the speed loaders, I could carry 12 rounds in dump pouches and only used 6 inches of space. Those rounds would be available for a tactical reload saving the speed loaders for a fast reload.
At the academy, we did not use either one . We dumped 50 rounds of 38 wad cutters in our right pants pocket. Pretty soon, you got good at reaching in your pocket and grabbing 6 rounds.
At the academy, we did not use either one . We dumped 50 rounds of 38 wad cutters in our right pants pocket. Pretty soon, you got good at reaching in your pocket and grabbing 6 rounds.
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jscott
Member
25 miles and a ferry ride? Yowzer!
Gene L
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Back when the Georgia State Patrol carried .357s, they carried 6 rounds of armor piercing ammo in loops on their patent leather. These were supposedly to shoot through an engine block to disable a vehicle, which a .357 was supposed to be able to do. These were brass-cased kinda pointy tipped rounds and the troopers kept them polished. I don't know if they ever used them for that. Don't know how they carried regular .357s.
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