Why the decline of S&W 40?

[rockquarry]

I've never had a .40 caliber anything nor have I had an interest in the S&W cartridge. It always seemed to me to be the theorists' "improved" version of something we already had but, as it turned out, really wasn't significantly better than what we already had.

Does it offer any real advantage over the 9mm or .45 ACP or something else? Probably little, if anything in the hands of a skilled shooter using "good" ammunition and that ammo may not be the latest YouTube, FBI, or IACP recommendation. What about comparatively heavier recoil and greater muzzle blast (and maybe flash)?

Still a good idea for folks to shoot what they shoot best and if that happens to be a .40 S&W handgun, I'll not argue as I think they would be well armed. Yet, how this cartridge really offers anything more than a textbook superiority over something else that's been around a while, that just doesn't make good sense.

 

[Farmer17]

The Glock is the handgun of most law enforcement and the Glock .40 came out very quickly without a lot of R&D and probably had the most problems of any Glock pistol. They got the problems ironed out but the guns really needed a heavier slide and different recoil spring(which they later changed) but they kicked more than some .40 handguns but I never thought the recoil was bad at all. Even the small Glocks in .40 didn't kick bad to me but a lot of shooters liked the 9m/m light recoil and the ammo was about 20-25% cheaper so that was the main reason. If I was a cop I'd probably prefer a .40 because I like a little extra power and hard barrier penetration and most full size guns still carry 16 rounds or so.

 

[LostintheOzone]

Although I'm a revolver enthusiast, I'm hearing a lot that the 40 S&W is out of favor nowadays.

I thought it was the ideal police cartridge with more than adequate power and excellent platforms to shoot it in.

What are the reasons for this pistol cartridge's decline?

S&W 32 Long used to be a police cartridge also. Police are just fickle. In a few years they'll be back to using 38's.

 

[Echo40]

Because modern 9mm Luger JHPs are capable of meeting FBI specifications, and the ammo is cheaper, simple as that.

.40 S&W still has an energy advantage over 9mm Luger, but that can be overcome with overpressure (+P+) loads, albeit at the cost of most of the advantages of choosing 9mm Luger over .40 S&W in the first place.
Amusingly enough, many Law Enforcement agencies across the United States issue 9mm Luger +P+ loads, which eliminates many of the advantages of 9mm Luger, such as the cost of ammo, longer service life, and softer recoil impulse. In fact, just about the only advantage of 9mm +P+ over .40 S&W is a couple extra rounds in the magazine, which while nice, hardly makes up for the cost of re-equipping the entire force with different firearms chambered in another cartridge in the short term.

Furthermore, it's very likely that the very same scapegoating and knee-jerk reactions which resulted in the creation/adoption of the .40 S&W cartridge will be repeated in the event in which history repeats itself and an FBI-involved shooting goes awry. The only question is, will they go back to .40 S&W or drastically alter the parameters of their testing yet again, resulting in the creation and or adoption of a new cartridge?

10mm > 10mm short

P229 .40 was my first pistol. Absolutely loved that pistol. Traded it plus cash for a 1076 and never looked back. Now I own 10mm semi autos exclusively except my G43 which doesn't count

I do still own a 4053, but I had BMCM convert it to 10mm for me

Just make sure that you're actually shooting full-power 10mm loads, otherwise you're just shooting .40 S&W out of a longer case and paying substantially more to do so.

I know that you probably already know this, (or at least I hope so) but you'd be surprised at how many folks brag about how they shoot 10mm not ".40 Short & Wimpy" only to embarrass themselves by posting a picture of their 10mm pistol sitting amongst boxes of ammo marked "10mm FBI" or otherwise with stats printed on them which show they're either equal or just marginally more powerful than .40 S&W.

Basically, if the ammo you're shooting is pushing a 180gr bullet at 1050fps, then that's 10mm FBI, which is essentially just .40 S&W in a longer case, sold at a substantially higher price. Full-power 10mm loads will push a 200gr bullet at 1200fps or a 180gr bullet at 1300fps.

 

[shawn mccarver]

Any decline is due to the same reason it became popular in the first place.

History: After the infamous Miami Shootout, the FBI adopted the 10mm Auto. The pistol proved too heavy, and the original Jeff Cooper load proved too hot for the agents. The Bureau monkeyed with the formula and came up with a 10mm load that fired a 180 grain JHP at 950 fps, as opposed to the real 10mm Norma load (200 grain JTC at 1,200 fps).

S&W and Winchester figured out that the ballistics of the FBI 10mm load could be duplicated in a shortened case that could be fit into the slide travel of a 9mm, thus allowing, in theory, any 9mm to be converted with minor adjustments to the breach face, the barrel, and the recoil system. (This turned out to be somewhat optimistic, but that is another thread.)

Bottom line is that the same year the FBI ammounced its adoption of the 10mm, S&W and Winchester shocked the world at the SHOT Show (1990, I think) by announcing their joint project, the Winchester .40 S&W and the S&W pistol to fire it, the Model 4006.

Ultimately, the FBI adopted the .40 S&W cartridge, albeit in a Glock 22/23 pistol, and everyone followed suit.

Fast forward to 3 or 4 years ago, and the FBI had ammo trials, declared the 9mm now acceptable due to advances in bullet (projectile design), and once the ammo was selected, the FBI put out a RFP (Request for Proposal) for a pistol that met a list of features specified for such a pistol.

That led to the FBI adopting the 9mm Glock 17M and 19M, supposedly the 19M for agents and the 17M for HRT and SWAT , etc. Whatever. Once the FBI said it was good enough, everyone else followed. The fact that regular citizens, as opposed to law enforcement officers, could get standard capacity magazines again (as opposed to reduced capacity magazines) everyone flocked to the 9mm again.

Here is my take. Even if you buy the hipe that the 9mm is better than it was in 1986 when the Miami Shootout happened (I do), the .45 ACP and the .40 S&W did not get worse. The .40 was discovered, in high volume use, to be REALLY hard on guns (lots of broken locking blocks, and other major issues with nearly every brand, but this problem was not noticed as much by ordinary folks who just don't shoot that much), and it is really hard on shooters too. Yes, I know all the "real men" would never admit it, but there are others using these guns also.

Bottom line, the .40 is still a fine choice with the right ammo, and the .45 is still the king of the hill. Remember, all calibers want to be as good as the .45, not vice versa. I will say this - the 9mm outshines the other two in pocket pistols due to the number of rounds that can be squeezed into a magazine. For belt carry, it hardly matters.

Use what you like, and if you make good hits, no one feels better after getting popped with any of the popular calibers.

 

[CH4]

Realistically, there is truly not a large enough difference in energy between defensive handgun cartridges and their respective projectiles to be meaningful; they're all designed to poke holes in things. It's more about one's ability to poke those holes in the right place than what they use to poke the holes. At the end of the day it's more important that you carry "a" gun and you can shoot that gun and bullet combination well.

 

[Warren Sear]

Although I'm a revolver enthusiast, I'm hearing a lot that the 40 S&W is out of favor nowadays.

I thought it was the ideal police cartridge with more than adequate power and excellent platforms to shoot it in.

What are the reasons for this pistol cartridge's decline?

This can easily explained with the same reasoning for the hording of .22 ammo and toilet paper; people are crazy.

 

[URIT]

Most folks can't handle the .40S&W and struggle with the 9mm.

 

[sigp220.45]

I was in the FBI when we switched from 9mm to .40, and I was still in the FBI when we switched from .40 to 9mm.

You are all missing one little thing: On a sunny day in September of 2001 (almost exactly the ten year mark in my career) 19 scumbags with boxcutters changed the world.

After that our ammo budget stayed exactly the same while the Bu spent gazillions of dollars on computers and analysts to squint at them. By exactly the same, I don't mean the same percentage of the budget. The same dollar amount. Ammo costs continued to rise, though.

Gone were the days when I could grab a Thompson ( yes, we still have some), a few cases of .45 ball, and go forth and make friends in PDs and SOs in my territory.

Soon, the days of grabbing ammo for shooting on your own were gone.

Then the days of shooting up your carry ammo at every qual were gone. Download your good stuff and save it.

Finally they were handing out just enough to qualify. No more marksmanship drills.

One day some bright boy realized in the great scheme of things guns were cheap compared to ammo costs. They budgeted 1000 rounds per agent per year. 12000 agents means 12 million rounds a year, not counting SWAT, HRT, the National Academy and New Agent training. (New agents burn about 10-12,000 rounds each in training). Guns are chump change, especially when Glock wants the contract really, really bad.

They hung their hat on the bullet technology thing, but it was absolutely a monetary decision. Nothing to do with smaller agents, recoil, the phases of the moon, or anything else.

The Bureau does not issue ammo to other agencies. Everyone is free to continue to shoot .40s, .45s, .32/20s, or Red Ryder BB guns.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

Yeah, remember during the 80s the first thing we did when we got our new Smiths home was to throw the wood combats, targets and magnas in a box or drawer and throw on a set of pachmayrs.

Not me. I hated(still do) those big ugly Pachs. ALL my Smith revolver wear WOOD grips. Most of them factory.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

While I agree with "GB", and generally I am not a big conspiracy theorist, consider the following. When did the PUSH for LE to change over-back to new 9mm guns and ammo occur? Look at the timing. After the 2016 Presidential election the slump in firearms sales began and the market became saturated with firearms at bargain prices. How could the firearms manufactures and ammo manufacturers create a new market? Convince the heads of LE that their current firearms and ammo were "not effective enough and too expensive". Convince the powers that be, they need to "upgrade" to new more effective ammo and by the way you can't use the new "more effective & cheaper" ammo in your current firearms. Wallah new sales in-coming. Never under estimate a well thought out sales program.

You nailed it . Then "Joe Shooter" had to switch because LE did. All now want a 9mm that holds a box of ammo. The 40 & 45 are better. Plus anything you can do to improve the nine you can do to the 40/45 to make even better...Lots of followers out there.........Not many leaders.

 

[K Frame Keith]

I was in the FBI when we switched from 9mm to .40, and I was still in the FBI when we switched from .40 to 9mm.

You are all missing one little thing: On a sunny day in September of 2001 (almost exactly the ten year mark in my career) 19 scumbags with boxcutters changed the world.

After that our ammo budget stayed exactly the same while the Bu spent gazillions of dollars on computers and analysts to squint at them. By exactly the same, I don't mean the same percentage of the budget. The same dollar amount. Ammo costs continued to rise, though.

Gone were the days when I could grab a Thompson ( yes, we still have some), a few cases of .45 ball, and go forth and make friends in PDs and SOs in my territory.

Soon, the days of grabbing ammo for shooting on your own were gone.

Then the days of shooting up your carry ammo at every qual were gone. Download your good stuff and save it.

Finally they were handing out just enough to qualify. No more marksmanship drills.

One day some bright boy realized in the great scheme of things guns were cheap compared to ammo costs. They budgeted 1000 rounds per agent per year. 12000 agents means 12 million rounds a year, not counting SWAT, HRT, the National Academy and New Agent training. (New agents burn about 10-12,000 rounds each in training). Guns are chump change, especially when Glock wants the contract really, really bad.

They hung their hat on the bullet technology thing, but it was absolutely a monetary decision. Nothing to do with smaller agents, recoil, the phases of the moon, or anything else.

The Bureau does not issue ammo to other agencies. Everyone is free to continue to shoot .40s, .45s, .32/20s, or Red Ryder BB guns.

Thank you and understood.

 

[Echo40]

Here is my take. Even if you buy the hipe that the 9mm is better than it was in 1986 when the Miami Shootout happened (I do), the .45 ACP and the .40 S&W did not get worse. The .40 was discovered, in high volume use, to be REALLY hard on guns (lots of broken locking blocks, and other major issues with nearly every brand, but this problem was not noticed as much by ordinary folks who just don't shoot that much), and it is really hard on shooters too. Yes, I know all the "real men" would never admit it, but there are others using these guns also.

While .40 S&W is most certainly hard on firearms which were originally designed for 9mm then modified to chamber .40 S&W, most firearms which were designed with the .40 S&W in mind, (namely those made by S&W themselves or SIGsauer) hold up just fine to a steady diet of .40 S&W.

Unfortunately, most PDs went with Glock 22/23s because Glock was often times the lowest bidder, and the Glock 22/23 is just a modified Glock 17/19. So the .40 S&W got a bad rap for battering guns because it battered a firearm which Glock rushed to market in order to beat S&W, and if the rumors are true, was designed around a single box of ammo that a Glock employee swiped off of Winchester's table at SHOT Show 1990 when nobody was looking then left some money in its place.
Meanwhile, notice how the SIGsauers and S&W .40cal pistols used by the FBI strangely aren't known for breaking down.

 

[44wheelman]

Some guy shot ballistic jello with all the usual suspects, determined there wasn't a whole lot of difference between them and said hmmm....why not just use the one with the most bullets....or something like that.

 

[oink]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the little issue about the military going to the 9mm. Where a huge percentage of police recruits came to police work having been trained in the military at least a little on .45ACP, the police recruits for a generation now have been coming from a military experience of 9mm. Those guys are now in charge of training and etc.

Personally I like the .40 and I've never found it to have much recoil. My early Gen 2 G23 seems to have held up very well.

 

[swsig]

And then there are a few of us who have dropped the 40 S&W, not because it was a bad round, but because we found it easy to convert our M&P and SIG 40s to 357 SIG. In my case, all I had to do is replace the barrel on my M&P 40c, and the barrel and sights on my P229. The 357 SIG is more fun to shoot, and you never know when its extra 100 ft/lbs of muzzle energy are going to come in handy.

 

[CCantu357]

The decline of the .40 as an LE round has made for some great deals. A couple of years ago, I was looking for a HK USP. Cabela's had two USPs, one in .40 and one in .45. The .40 was about under $500 and the .45 was selling for over $800. Granted, the .40 came with Clinton mags, but it was still a great deal.

I think it is important to remeber the that .40 is in decline not because it is a bad round, but because the 9mm has improved and is still cheaper to shoot. While I prefer 10mm or .45, I still like the ballistics of the 180 grain .40 round. From what I understand the .40 is one of the best performing police rounds since the .357 Magnum 125 grain hollow point.

 

[rwsmith]

I think that a lot of .40 S&W guns.....

.... were built using 9mm frames. That's why they got battered so much.

 

[Pointblank2U]

Just like in real estate and cars, the industry makes money on "churn". We constantly see the newest whiz-bang pistol released with "just one more round" in the magazine and a seesawing between calibers. Caveat Emptor.

 

[glider1]

I have a 9 for a range gun. Cheap to shoot whether you reload or not, accurate, mild recoil, just a nice range gun. I wouldn't feel under gunned with my 9 but I would prefer my 40 or 45ACP if the SHTF. Actually, if the SHTF a 357 with 125 JHP would be my first choice. That may change after I get a 357SIG barrel for my P229.