Why the decline of S&W 40?

[Erocksmash]

If you ask my two pennies... 9mm is cool n' all cheap to shoot well it was before "covid19" lol It goes bang, bullet technology sure has improved over the years yes, but if you ask me... I prefer .40kurz over 9mm. I shoot it better than 9mm. I shoot it probably best out of all my flavors of projectiles, but that's just me...

I went to a local show about um.. 3 or so weeks ago and everyone there was buying up 9's and .45s they glossed right over the .40s, so I stocked up lol.

Maybe an odd ball caliber, but when it hit the fan around my parts there was plenty of .40S&W to be had...

 

[VictorLouis]

..., I've never bought into the "compromise" calibers, which is what I consider the 40 and the 41magnum,

I'll grant you the .40, but I'm not. so sure on the .41. The miniscule difference between .41", and .429"...and a few grains weight...is not on the same level, IMO. That .41 sure shoots flatter, farther, IIRC. Truth be told though, I just don't have any measurable significant experience with the .41, having only briefly owned/shot a 627. More experience with the .44, including a couple flirtations with leverguns.

... most firearms which were designed with the .40 S&W in mind, (namely those made by S&W themselves or SIGsauer) hold up just fine to a steady diet of .40 S&W.

..... the .40 S&W got a bad rap for battering guns because it battered a firearm which Glock rushed to market in order to beat S&W,

I was 'IN-ON' .40 from the jump in '95. Bought the first 4006 I could grab.
Extra weight in the slide, for sure, over the 5906. Still, original 180gr loads at about 950fps were snappy. Further still, even in the Smith, primer-wipe AND casehead bulging was evident in recovered brass.

I don't recall ever owning a Glock .40, but certainly have shot them. There's a reason Herr Gaston added the 3rd cross-pin to the frames, and that was the battering from .40. You can't merely just 'UP-spring' the 9mm design. If you ever get to handled a BHP in .40, you would easily see how they added needed weight into the slide. Also, that model pistol, and a friend's 1911 pattern w/integral feed ramp remain the ONLY .40 cal pistols I've shot which didn't exhibit primer-wipe nor casehead bulging.

 

[Echo40]

If you ask my two pennies... 9mm is cool n' all cheap to shoot well it was before "covid19" lol It goes bang, bullet technology sure has improved over the years yes, but if you ask me... I prefer .40kurz over 9mm. I shoot it better than 9mm. I shoot it probably best out of all my flavors of projectiles, but that's just me...

On any other forum you would most likely have already been bombarded by replies informing you that it is scientifically impossible to shoot .40 S&W better than 9mm Luger because according to non-disclosed testing conducted by someone, somewhere, at someplace in time everyone shoots 9mm better because it addition to being able to defy the laws of physics (or at least marginally so) it has somehow managed to achieve perfect balance, regardless of who shoots it or what they fire it from, ergo it will always have faster follow up shots, less felt recoil, higher ammo capacity, and equal -- excuse me -- "marginally" equal performance compared to a .40 S&W or .45 ACP. It's just science...Or magic...Or maybe a touch of divine intervention...Or all of the above.

 

[bmcgilvray]

It's the 9mm that I wish would decline. The .40 S&W is esteemed here.

 

[Echo40]

I don't really mind 9mm Luger so much as I dislike its Fanboys who absolutely will not stop trying to push it as the ultimate do-all cartridge, complete with ridiculous claims that anything more powerful is either too little a difference to matter or otherwise excessive.

Honestly, when I was first looking into getting a handgun for Self-Defense, they made research nearly impossible and ended up misleading me so terribly with their rhetoric that what should have been simple, fast, and ultimately ended in a prompt satisfactory conclusion ended up a roundabout baffling ordeal.

 

[Wee Hooker]

The answer is simple. Take the same gun in both 9mm and 40 S&W and shoot them side by side. 9 out of 10 people will shoot the 9mm more accuratly in rapid fire and also enjoy the lessened recoil.
Personally, I never had need for the 40 but admittedly ended up with a few 5" range guns (1911 and M&P Pro) chambered in 40 S&W in the collection. ( Read: Deals too good to pass up) I reload for them so they shoot softer like a 185gr 45acp but at reduced cost. I also keep a 357 sig barrel for each so the interchangeability is kinda cool.

p.s. When I started working in a gun shop some 4 years ago, 40's were the big sellers in carry guns. By the time I quit last year, we couldn't give a 40 away to most customers. We even stopped taking them back in trade they sold so poorly.

 

[jupiter1]

I've read a number of disturbing reports of police officers firing upwards of 30 rounds of ammunition at a target within 7 yards yet only scoring 3-5 hits, and these reports often specify that said officers were carrying 9mm pistols, mind you.

I believe that the large amount of rounds fired has more to do with the changeover from 6 shot revolvers to 15+ round semi auto pistols. One of the arguments against the switch was that officers would be more inclined to spray and pray during gunfights. From watching the numerous body cam footage now available, I believe that to be true in many cases. In some of the high round count videos that I've seen, one well aimed round from a Colt SAA would have done the job.

It would have been interesting to compare DA revolver involved gunfight videos if the technology existed back then.

 

[SAFireman]

I had a 40 S&W at the academy, a Sig p229 that we swapped out the 357 Sig barrel for 40 at the beginning of the class....big mistake.

I found the 10's and never looked back, never had another 40.

I later re-discovered the 41 Magnum and that's all she wrote

 

[Echo40]

The answer is simple. Take the same gun in both 9mm and 40 S&W and shoot them side by side. 9 out of 10 people will shoot the 9mm more accuratly in rapid fire and also enjoy the lessened recoil.

As as I was saying previously, such blanket statements ignore variables such as the build of the shooter as well as the firearm.

Sure, for the lowest common denominator of civilian shooters who tend to gravitate towards smaller, lighter, easier to conceal pistols/bullets and doesn't spend very much time at the range, the statement is fairly accurate.
However, for Law Enforcement officers who you'd hope are in better overall physical condition, carry full-size pistols which are typically heavy duty service-grade firearms, and spend more time shooting than your average Joe Shmoe who buys a firearm then proceeds to throw it directly into his holster or nightstand drawer before even taking it out to the range, not so much.

Out of a full-size pistol, the difference in felt recoil better 9mm and .40 S&W defensive loads can be downright negligible, especially in heavier all-metal service pistols like the Beretta 92/96 or SIG P226.

So even if modern police departments are packed full of lady cops and smaller framed gentlemen, I doubt that the difference between the 155-180gr .40 S&W loads they were carrying and the 124-147gr 9mm Luger +P+ loads they're currently carrying have an appreciable difference in felt recoil.

I believe that the large amount of rounds fired has more to do with the changeover from 6 shot revolvers to 15+ round semi auto pistols. One of the arguments against the switch was that officers would be more inclined to spray and pray during gunfights. From watching the numerous body cam footage now available, I believe that to be true in many cases. In some of the high round count videos that I've seen, one well aimed round from a Colt SAA would have done the job.

It would have been interesting to compare DA revolver involved gunfight videos if the technology existed back then.

Perhaps, but regardless of the reason, adequate training should prevent them from haphazardly slinging lead, both to mitigate the risk of collateral damage as well as to conserve ammo so that officers don't have to pause to reload in gunfights as often.

 

[ContinentalOp]

I believe that the large amount of rounds fired has more to do with the changeover from 6 shot revolvers to 15+ round semi auto pistols. One of the arguments against the switch was that officers would be more inclined to spray and pray during gunfights. From watching the numerous body cam footage now available, I believe that to be true in many cases. In some of the high round count videos that I've seen, one well aimed round from a Colt SAA would have done the job.

It would have been interesting to compare DA revolver involved gunfight videos if the technology existed back then.

No videos, but I recall reading an article based on NYPD's SOP-9 report, which is their annual report on firearms discharges. From what I remember, when they used DA revolvers, officers would typically fire 4-5 shots per incident. When they switched to semi-autos, it went up to 10+ shots per incident. It was suggested that whatever the capacity of the gun, officers would fire nearly every round the gun held. It should also be noted that at the time I read the article, I believe that after the academy, NYPD officers only did 2 days of firearms in-service training once/year, 1 day of training and 1 day for qualifying. I don't know if that's still the case.

 

[Cal44]

I think many people pay too much attention to what is written in the gun press and what is said on the Internet.

And like to go with trends and have lots of people agree with them.

This instead of common sense.

How can a heavier, larger diameter bullet launched with greater energy not be at least a little better than it's smaller less powerful cousin?

 

[biku324]

^^^^That's just crazy talk!

 

[ContinentalOp]

I think many people pay too much attention to what is written in the gun press and what is said on the Internet.

And like to go with trends and have lots of people agree with them.

This instead of common sense.

How can a heavier, larger diameter bullet launched with greater energy not be at least a little better than it's smaller less powerful cousin?

Common sense tells me to rely on facts, not what people believe. The fact is that in actual shootings, any difference in effectiveness between the handgun service calibers is neglible.

So pick a good HP in a caliber you like, and go from there. Doesn't really matter if it's 9mm, .40, .45, etc.

 

[jupiter1]

How can a heavier, larger diameter bullet launched with greater energy not be at least a little better than it's smaller less powerful cousin?

A little, or a lot, or no better; no one has found a way to scientifically measure it. All we have are anecdotes, questionable formulas and some inconclusive tests. I think what matters most is that we have faith in our chosen caliber.

 

[walnutred]

Not that it matters in the discussion but I find the 40 S&W physically easier to reload than 9mm. For me the slightly larger cases and projectiles are easier to handle. So as all of my handgun shooting lately has been at targets and usually with reloaded ammo that in itself is enough reason to pick the 40 load. Maybe I now have multiple M&Ps for the same reason I have multiple K frames, they may be different calibers and barrel lengths but they feel and handle very similar. So if I find myself actually having to call on that handgun in a low light situation and adrenaline pumping, hopefully muscle memory will help.

 

[1775usmarine]

All I know is when I was able to snag 4k of brass for $40 last year, and finally bought my 1st 40 in Oct a CHP 4006 I'm set in the reloading department. I had at least 2k casings on hand before my purchases. Just got to buy a mould and powdercoating powder to make me some dirt cheap reloads.

 

[hoytx10]

On any other forum you would most likely have already been bombarded by replies informing you that it is scientifically impossible to shoot .40 S&W better than 9mm Luger because according to non-disclosed testing conducted by someone, somewhere, at someplace in time everyone shoots 9mm better because it addition to being able to defy the laws of physics (or at least marginally so) it has somehow managed to achieve perfect balance, regardless of who shoots it or what they fire it from, ergo it will always have faster follow up shots, less felt recoil, higher ammo capacity, and equal -- excuse me -- "marginally" equal performance compared to a .40 S&W or .45 ACP. It's just science...Or magic...Or maybe a touch of divine intervention...Or all of the above.

Couldn't of said it better! You hit the nail on the head with this comment.

 

[mike from st pete]

I have nothing to say about declining 40S&W sales and usage.
Since I never jumped on that bandwagon in the first place.

 

[Erocksmash]

I think many people pay too much attention to what is written in the gun press and what is said on the Internet.

And like to go with trends and have lots of people agree with them.

This instead of common sense.

How can a heavier, larger diameter bullet launched with greater energy not be at least a little better than it's smaller less powerful cousin?

Blasphemy!!! Haha. Just kidden, my point exactly!

 

[Erocksmash]

Another example as to what Dirty Harry Callahan has laied out and 1 example to discredit the "average off the street person who's never shot a gun before"...

Upon meeting my now wife, I'm very pro 2a, so one of our first dates was to the range.. the guns brought.. a Glock 43, 27 a model 19 and a Taurus. 38 snub... a new target for each course of fire with corresponding weapon...

Mind you she has NEVER fired a gun before meeting me...

At the time we ran what I could remember from Florida LEO qualification, the Taurus she flopped on big time, the 43 did ok alot of crotch hits (ykes) ,the 19 was all over the place, but the 27 she scored perfect with....

She has shot that gun consistently better than any 3rd generation S&W, revolver or any other glock I stick in her hands... in .40 KURZ!!