Old K Frame Snub Arrives

[mikepriwer]

Full serial number

Don

The full serial number is visible in post #22, where the serial number is visible on the underside of the barrel, and the rear face of the cylinder. It looks like 694053.

Regards, Mike

 

[Buick]

It is 694053. In the initial post i just left off the last two digits out of habit, not knowing they might be crucial.

 

[DWalt]

I agree that the finish appears more like the post-WWII satin finish, not the bright blue of pre-war S&Ws. Therefore, it becomes more likely that it was assembled and finished after the war. I don't see an "s" stamp on the grip frame. It looks more like a "3".

 

[mikepriwer]

I think it is a 3, but can't be sure. There is a bunch of these 2" guns with relatively close serial numbers, that are late shipped. My view about the shipping date has not changed.

Regards, Mike

 

[Buick]

I sent off for a letter on this one and also an application for membership in the S&WCA. Im going to make a guess that this revolver was one of the 10 that went to the Seattle distributor. It does have the more matte blueing and serialization font of the post war guns, from what i am seeing in this thread.

 

[mikepriwer]

Buick

694053, without a V prefix on the serial number, can not be post-WW2; its too early for the S prefix, and therefore it has to be pre-WW2.

Here is a picture comparing the butt serial numbers from 694101 and (S)833957. 694101 is pre-WW2, and (S) 833957 is post-WW2. On this latter gun, the S is not stamped on the butt, but rather on the grip frame. The factory letter, and other pictues I have, confirm this.

You can see the differences in the font styles of the two guns, as well as the height of the dies.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[Buick]

Ah i see then that my font much more closely resembles the pre war style you picture here. Thank you

 

[Buick]

It seems likely that these round butt frames were shelved as Victory Model production took over for the duration, and were completed post war to meet pent up demand for factory snubs.

 

[mikepriwer]

Buick

Generally that's correct. The caveat is - how much of the gun had been assembled before it was shelved, for the duration of WW2? As Lee Jarrett pointed out, its doubtful that fully finished guns would have been shelved; there was too much demand for the guns, and they would have been sold to some entity for the war effort.

The assembly process for a gun started with fitting together a frame, side-plate, and rough grips. Upon completion of this first phase of assembly, a serial number was assigned, and stamped on the frame, side-plate, and marked in pencil inside the right grip. At some point, the pencil marking was replaced with a stamping of the serial number. The assigned serial number was contemporary - as of the date of assembly.

If the assembly process for a gun was suspended at that point, then presumably all that would have been stored, at that point, is the frame, side-plate, and the grips. Its worth pointing out that there is a noticeable difference in the blued finish between the guns shipped pre-WW2, and the ones shipped post-WW2. The bluing was the second-to-last phase of the process; the last was a final hard fitting after bluing and heat-treating of certain parts. The bluing process was suspended during WW2, and so its not surprising that there would be a difference between the prewar and postwar finishes.

By knowing the serial number, the historian knows what shipping records book to use, and thereby knows the time frame of the assignment of that serial number, which was the time frame for the first phase of the assembly process. The entry in the shipping records book, for that serial number, will contain the date and destination of the gun when it was shipped.

Its important to understand the overall process, when thinking about what might have happened 75 -80 years ago!

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[JP@AK]

Buick

As usual, Mike's information is dead on. You can, and should, rely on it!

 

[Buick]

It looks as if the cylinder and barrel have the new font stamping, while the grip frame has the older smaller style.

 

[mikepriwer]

The grip frame, or butt, definitely has the pre-WW2, or older, style and size. I wasn't paying attention to the stamping on the barrel or cylinder.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[Old Corp]

Really interesting post and thread.....
To help my comparatively small knowledge base - when did the hard rubber grips disappear from production?
Are they of the material known as Bakelite? Is it the same material Colt also used?

Similar grips are so often seen cracked or broken - I wonder if it's because the material becomes brittle with age, or does it start out that way?

 

[Modified]

Really interesting post and thread.....
To help my comparatively small knowledge base - when did the hard rubber grips disappear from production?
Are they of the material known as Bakelite? Is it the same material Colt also used?

Similar grips are so often seen cracked or broken - I wonder if it's because the material becomes brittle with age, or does it start out that way?

Bakelite is a different material, and much later. The early S&W stocks as I understand it were made of actual Hard Rubber. Which as far as I know is exactly what it sounds like. The heavy vulcanization of India rubber from the latex of different trees.

Hard rubber for grips goes way back into the 1800s, whereas Bakelite wasn't invented into 1907.

As to the brittleness: they absolutely do become more fragile with age, and exposure. It is after all a natural material that does break down over time.

As to production, I don't know for certain on that, but I can't think of any proper production post-war gun that they made them for. I'd wager (and more knowledgeable folks can confirm/correct me on this), that the end of their production was WW2.

 

[Borderboss]

I don't know the scientific details about the makeup of hard rubber, but I've noticed differences in discoloring between hard rubber used in making revolver grips and hard rubber that was used in making fountain pens in the late-1890s through the 1920s.

In the photo below, you'll see two Parker fountain pens from the 19-teens. Both are made of black hard rubber. The top one is pretty much the same color it came out of the factory with. The bottom one is completely discolored, likely from the sun, although this same thing happens when these pens get wet. The typical color transforms to an olive green shade.

I've never seen that kind of color change happen with hard rubber revolver grips.

Does anyone with more knowledge than I (not a high bar) have any thoughts on this?

 

[Modified]

I don't know the scientific details about the makeup of hard rubber, but I've noticed differences in discoloring between hard rubber used in making revolver grips and hard rubber that was used in making fountain pens in the late-1890s through the 1920s.

In the photo below, you'll see two Parker fountain pens from the 19-teens. Both are made of black hard rubber. The top one is pretty much the same color it came out of the factory with. The bottom one is completely discolored, likely from the sun, although this same thing happens when these pens get wet. The typical color transforms to an olive green shade.

I've never seen that kind of color change happen with hard rubber revolver grips.

Does anyone with more knowledge than I (not a high bar) have any thoughts on this?

I've absolutely seen hard rubber grips that color. Usually you will see one panel looking perfect (like the top pen) and the other panel the color of the bottom pen. I have always assumed it was because the gun was sitting somewhere in the sun.

 

[Borderboss]

I've absolutely seen hard rubber grips that color. Usually you will see one panel looking perfect (like the top pen) and the other panel the color of the bottom pen. I have always assumed it was because the gun was sitting somewhere in the sun.

That's interesting to know. Thanks for that.

In the case you described, I agree that the gun was likely laying flat in the sun for a long period of time. If both sides are discolored, then it's likely because they got wet.

Another hard rubber phenomenon that probably wouldn't affect many guns except for high end guns. Hard rubber "out-gasses" and tarnishes silver that it's close to. So a gun that's silver plated and has hard rubber grips would likely see tarnishing of the finish.

Sorry for the thread drift.

 

[Buick]

I received the factory letter (Thanks Roy!) and this gun shipped Sept 22nd, 1946, to Zork Hardware Co. El Paso, Texas.