They called the police for a suspected burglar w/ prior shoplifting charges (possibly unknown to them), then followed him. All legal so far. However stopping him was over the line, brandishing a gun while stopping him, way over the line unless they claimed to be making a citizens arrest (they're not claiming that). Possible kidnapping? At that point thy can't legitimately claim self defense but Arbery might since they came after him... if he survived the attack. Getting that close to a suspect is bad tactics, obviously had no idea what they were doing. Arbery had reason to protect himself since a couple pickups full of armed rednecks were chasing him. Father & son are in a world of trouble. The videoing neighbor is now in the middle of a mess although his intent may have been good.
The Ahmaud Arbery Shooting
- Thread starter federali
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Manslaughter at the least & they are going to loose everything they own in civil suits.
Dunno about there, but in New Mexico this would be straight up voluntary manslaughter with a firearm enhancement.
a corrupt police chief, a corrupt DA who is definitely becoming a headline, this is just a slice from current reporting on how grim conditions in this county have been:
"On Feb. 28, Glynn County Police Chief John Powell was indicted, along with two officers and the police chief from nearby Vidalia, on charges of covering up crimes allegedly committed by members of the department’s drug task force. Former members of the since-disbanded task force were accused of suppressing evidence in a fatal police chase, sleeping and doing meth and cocaine with a confidential informant, carrying a handgun while drinking in a bar, coercing witnesses, and lying to the Georgia Bureau of Investigation about at least one of those instances of misconduct."
"Sasser, one of the two officers involved in Small’s killing, went on to kill his wife and her friend before turning the gun on himself in June 2018. He was out on bond at the time, after threatening his estranged wife at her home. After that, Sasser had attacked police officers during an armed standoff and was again released on bond, an agreement DA Johnson negotiated with a local judge. Out on that bond, he threatened his estranged wife and her male companion at a restaurant. Two days later, he killed the pair."
"On Feb. 28, Glynn County Police Chief John Powell was indicted, along with two officers and the police chief from nearby Vidalia, on charges of covering up crimes allegedly committed by members of the department’s drug task force. Former members of the since-disbanded task force were accused of suppressing evidence in a fatal police chase, sleeping and doing meth and cocaine with a confidential informant, carrying a handgun while drinking in a bar, coercing witnesses, and lying to the Georgia Bureau of Investigation about at least one of those instances of misconduct."
"Sasser, one of the two officers involved in Small’s killing, went on to kill his wife and her friend before turning the gun on himself in June 2018. He was out on bond at the time, after threatening his estranged wife at her home. After that, Sasser had attacked police officers during an armed standoff and was again released on bond, an agreement DA Johnson negotiated with a local judge. Out on that bond, he threatened his estranged wife and her male companion at a restaurant. Two days later, he killed the pair."
sigp220.45
US Veteran
I’ll wait for the rest of the story before pronouncing judgement.
In the coming days and weeks the dead guy’s mugshots will be released by the defense, along with his criminal history. Maybe the doorbell cam video, or other witnesses who saw him interrupt his jog by poking around in a home under construction.
I’ll let the system work.
In the coming days and weeks the dead guy’s mugshots will be released by the defense, along with his criminal history. Maybe the doorbell cam video, or other witnesses who saw him interrupt his jog by poking around in a home under construction.
I’ll let the system work.
Me too, but it sure beats another virus thread, at least for the time being.
Doug M.
Member
As a realistic matter, I am never unarmed. Period. I almost never go anywhere if I cannot be armed there. I am horrified when I read of people who could be armed and chose not to be - it is simply not consistent with anything I know or believe. But: it is for the defense of myself, my wife, my dogs. Period.
Is it possible I would get involved in some other situation? Yes, but very unlikely. Unless the facts are really clear to me (like someone assaulting a cop), I'm going to call 911 and stay back. I came close to intervening in a matter involving an officer being resisted while I was walking the dogs a few years ago, and I would done so if I had not been able to ascertain the officer's well-being from a distance.
While is is clear that neither American cops nor private citizens kill nearly as many violent criminals as they could (and thus by definition should), this event is very unlikely to pass the smell test.
Is it possible I would get involved in some other situation? Yes, but very unlikely. Unless the facts are really clear to me (like someone assaulting a cop), I'm going to call 911 and stay back. I came close to intervening in a matter involving an officer being resisted while I was walking the dogs a few years ago, and I would done so if I had not been able to ascertain the officer's well-being from a distance.
While is is clear that neither American cops nor private citizens kill nearly as many violent criminals as they could (and thus by definition should), this event is very unlikely to pass the smell test.
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Skeptic 9c
Member
So, according to the above, all "persons of color" are automatically guilty of something and should be shot for getting "uppity" and daring to jog in the wrong neighborhood. Go look in a mirror.
We do not know what was said, the only credible witness is DEAD. If it was his choice to die fighting instead of on his knees like a slave, I agree.
Geoff
Who thinks it was a pure race murder, the alleged crimes were committed months before the incident, no "hot pursuit."
Gene L
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Long post, so beware.
As a retired LEO after 33 years, I can’t think of a single legal circumstance that would justify this killing. Poking around as he was jogging in broad daylight in a white neighborhood? Does that sound reasonable to anyone? Even if he had, there’s no way the shooters could have known this. Self defense? The person who initiates the violence can’t claim self defense when the victim tries to defend himself. As I see it at this time, it’s murder and I can’t think of any reason this killing would be justified.
Before I retired in 2009, we worked a somewhat similar case, legally similar but the circumstances were different. A case where a nan took the law in his own hands where no crime had been committed by the victim. The victim was on a 125 cc motorbike coming out of a shopping center making a left turn when the two daughters of the shooter, also making a left turn in an auto, made contact with him in his lane. It wasn’t serious contact, but both vehicles received a little bit of damage. The girls didn’t stop and the biker followed them home. En route, the daughters called dad and told him a biker was following them home, which indeed he was. That’s all they told him, no other info about the slight collision. Or a touching, at least.
Anyway, dad got his pistol and stood in his yard, presumably next to the street. Girls drove into the driveway. The biker apparently saw dad with the pistol, drove by. Dead end street, so he turned around and rode past the house. Father said he tried to run him down, but no evidence of this. Dad said he was on his property when he shot the biker in the back as he rode by, killing him. If he was on his on property when he shot, there would have been shell casings (it was one of those commie 9x18 pistols) but there weren’t. Dad policed them up before we got there, presumably to hide where he was when he shot, an indicator he knew what he’d done was wrong. He shot the kid, who was retreating, from the street. In the back.
When I say “biker” not talking about a 300 pound outlaw biker, unshaven and riding a Harley, this kid was on a 125 cc bike, was 19 years old, and weighed 125 pounds. Because we get very few murders, we investigated this case very thoroughly.
Dad was convicted. He was a respected member of the community, and in fact the street where he killed the biker bore his last name, after his father, a preacher.
I make this long post to show what can happen when someone uses a firearm illegally against another person who is not offering a threat. . Bad things will happen.
Different circumstances but legal similarity. Our case was a white on white crime, so there wasn’t as much emotion as in the Arbery case, but the shooter had lots of support in the community as a person. Support but not a lot of sympathy.
To clear up the definition of Citizens Arrest, a citizen can arrest a person who commits a crime in his presence or in his knowledge. Felony or misdemeanor. Which allows security in stores to arrest shoplifters. In GA, citizens have the same arrest powers as LEOs, except citizens can’t arrest for traffic violations or ordinance violations, and can’t serve warrants.
As a retired LEO after 33 years, I can’t think of a single legal circumstance that would justify this killing. Poking around as he was jogging in broad daylight in a white neighborhood? Does that sound reasonable to anyone? Even if he had, there’s no way the shooters could have known this. Self defense? The person who initiates the violence can’t claim self defense when the victim tries to defend himself. As I see it at this time, it’s murder and I can’t think of any reason this killing would be justified.
Before I retired in 2009, we worked a somewhat similar case, legally similar but the circumstances were different. A case where a nan took the law in his own hands where no crime had been committed by the victim. The victim was on a 125 cc motorbike coming out of a shopping center making a left turn when the two daughters of the shooter, also making a left turn in an auto, made contact with him in his lane. It wasn’t serious contact, but both vehicles received a little bit of damage. The girls didn’t stop and the biker followed them home. En route, the daughters called dad and told him a biker was following them home, which indeed he was. That’s all they told him, no other info about the slight collision. Or a touching, at least.
Anyway, dad got his pistol and stood in his yard, presumably next to the street. Girls drove into the driveway. The biker apparently saw dad with the pistol, drove by. Dead end street, so he turned around and rode past the house. Father said he tried to run him down, but no evidence of this. Dad said he was on his property when he shot the biker in the back as he rode by, killing him. If he was on his on property when he shot, there would have been shell casings (it was one of those commie 9x18 pistols) but there weren’t. Dad policed them up before we got there, presumably to hide where he was when he shot, an indicator he knew what he’d done was wrong. He shot the kid, who was retreating, from the street. In the back.
When I say “biker” not talking about a 300 pound outlaw biker, unshaven and riding a Harley, this kid was on a 125 cc bike, was 19 years old, and weighed 125 pounds. Because we get very few murders, we investigated this case very thoroughly.
Dad was convicted. He was a respected member of the community, and in fact the street where he killed the biker bore his last name, after his father, a preacher.
I make this long post to show what can happen when someone uses a firearm illegally against another person who is not offering a threat. . Bad things will happen.
Different circumstances but legal similarity. Our case was a white on white crime, so there wasn’t as much emotion as in the Arbery case, but the shooter had lots of support in the community as a person. Support but not a lot of sympathy.
To clear up the definition of Citizens Arrest, a citizen can arrest a person who commits a crime in his presence or in his knowledge. Felony or misdemeanor. Which allows security in stores to arrest shoplifters. In GA, citizens have the same arrest powers as LEOs, except citizens can’t arrest for traffic violations or ordinance violations, and can’t serve warrants.
ColbyBruce
Member
I am sorry two men caught on video murdering a young man were arrested. They are obviously guilty and should of been hung already. One of the murderers is a former LEO, according to the news reports every few hours.
My concern is that the proper charges are filed. Former DeKalb county sheriff Ray Bonner shot and killed a teenager years ago and got off because of wrong charges.
My concern is that the proper charges are filed. Former DeKalb county sheriff Ray Bonner shot and killed a teenager years ago and got off because of wrong charges.
Fastbolt
Member
Watching the limited video and reading the deluge of info released thus far ...
This seemingly started with poor judgment, and went downhill.
No way for me to pretend to know the father's experience and professionalism as a former police officer and retired DA's Investigator, of course.
That said, being a retired peace officer, it's dismaying to think he would've thought it was any sort of a good idea to arm himself, and encourage (?) his son to arm himself, and chase after a man seen running for what he might think would be nothing more than a low level property crime. That's why we pay local taxes to have the uniformed cops drive around and be willing to check out suspicious people and circumstances.
Maybe stretch it and follow at a distance, and not stand with a gun in the bed of the truck, so he could offer to update the responding cops to DoT? Even that's a recipe for a possible nasty turn of events, though. Let the responding cops have the room to do their thing.
A little while back I had a neighbor come over and get me because another neighbor's house alarm was going off in the afternoon. Yes, she knew I was a retired cop, so she came to knock on my door. "Did anyone call the sheriff?" Yes? See anything obviously bad? No? Then I'll walk along, but only to observe from a distance, and try to keep everyone else to stay back and wait for the sheriff.
Local deputy rolled up, after driving right by the right address. (Hey, it happens, folks.)
I met him in the road, identified myself and my little "group" as concerned neighbors, and pointed out the correct residence (visible from our position about a hundred yards away). Gave him what little succinct info we had about the new buyers to the neighborhood.
Since he was alone on the call, at least at that time, I quietly identified myself as a retired cop. He wouldn't have been able to see my pocketed weapon (and he didn't ask), and neither did any of the neighbors (be able to see, or think to ask). I offered to make sure the rest of the neighbors stayed well back, and stood closer where I could have a good view of 2 sides of the house/property while he did his check for open doors, windows, people, etc ... and be able to greet any further cover unit and direct them (in case they missed the SO veh parked on a side private road
).
Anticlimactic. That's always a good thing. House secure and no signs of forced entry. Just another new resident alarm system call in the country. Nice to have interested neighbors, though. As long as none of them do anything stupid that gets them hurt or in serious trouble, or anyone else hurt.
Oh yeah, make sure the sheriff has been called before you come knock at my door. Saves me from having to do it and play catch up/go-between. Embarrassing. Sigh.
Some people seem to want to treat property crimes like it's life and death, and don't seem to grasp that poor judgment and bad decisions can turn an otherwise low level susp/circ call into a serious injury or death event.
This seemingly started with poor judgment, and went downhill.
No way for me to pretend to know the father's experience and professionalism as a former police officer and retired DA's Investigator, of course.
That said, being a retired peace officer, it's dismaying to think he would've thought it was any sort of a good idea to arm himself, and encourage (?) his son to arm himself, and chase after a man seen running for what he might think would be nothing more than a low level property crime. That's why we pay local taxes to have the uniformed cops drive around and be willing to check out suspicious people and circumstances.
Maybe stretch it and follow at a distance, and not stand with a gun in the bed of the truck, so he could offer to update the responding cops to DoT? Even that's a recipe for a possible nasty turn of events, though. Let the responding cops have the room to do their thing.
A little while back I had a neighbor come over and get me because another neighbor's house alarm was going off in the afternoon. Yes, she knew I was a retired cop, so she came to knock on my door. "Did anyone call the sheriff?" Yes? See anything obviously bad? No? Then I'll walk along, but only to observe from a distance, and try to keep everyone else to stay back and wait for the sheriff.
Local deputy rolled up, after driving right by the right address. (Hey, it happens, folks.)
I met him in the road, identified myself and my little "group" as concerned neighbors, and pointed out the correct residence (visible from our position about a hundred yards away). Gave him what little succinct info we had about the new buyers to the neighborhood.
Since he was alone on the call, at least at that time, I quietly identified myself as a retired cop. He wouldn't have been able to see my pocketed weapon (and he didn't ask), and neither did any of the neighbors (be able to see, or think to ask). I offered to make sure the rest of the neighbors stayed well back, and stood closer where I could have a good view of 2 sides of the house/property while he did his check for open doors, windows, people, etc ... and be able to greet any further cover unit and direct them (in case they missed the SO veh parked on a side private road
). Anticlimactic. That's always a good thing.
House secure and no signs of forced entry. Just another new resident alarm system call in the country. Nice to have interested neighbors, though. As long as none of them do anything stupid that gets them hurt or in serious trouble, or anyone else hurt. Oh yeah, make sure the sheriff has been called before you come knock at my door. Saves me from having to do it and play catch up/go-between. Embarrassing. Sigh.
Some people seem to want to treat property crimes like it's life and death, and don't seem to grasp that poor judgment and bad decisions can turn an otherwise low level susp/circ call into a serious injury or death event.
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Sorry, but you are wrong.....no reason for the young man to comply with thugs brandishing a weapon at him....I would like to see you comply in that situation.....probably not going to happen. You just happen not to be black and you own firearms.....your perspective is skewed. If someone attempts to detain me with a weapon.....and I am privileged to be able to own a bunch of firearms....that situation is going to be me or them. This kid fought with what he had.....they won, but now they get to pay the price for acting as thugs....no sympathy for them and they deserve the maximum penalty.....to think that the young man should have complied is kind of twisted thinking.....as far as he was concerned his life was in danger.....
While I personally disagree with the actions of these two vigilantes, I have to say that Georgia has one of the most ambiguous citizen arrest laws I’ve ever encountered:
O.C.G.A. 17-4-60 (2010)
17-4-60. Grounds for arrest
A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge. If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion.
I don’t know all of the circumstances of this case, but I suspect that whichever side of this controversy you come down on, you can probably make an argument based on that equivocal and puzzling language.
O.C.G.A. 17-4-60 (2010)
17-4-60. Grounds for arrest
A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge. If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion.
I don’t know all of the circumstances of this case, but I suspect that whichever side of this controversy you come down on, you can probably make an argument based on that equivocal and puzzling language.
Happened not to far from my town. Got church members who live in that area. The boy was well know in our country high school, etc. He was out running. He had not broken any laws. He was simply out running. The two men who murdered him can holler citizen arrest, standing their ground or anything else they want. The video shows what happened. They murdered the man. Plain and simple. He didn't force them to shoot b/c they were in danger of getting shot if he got the gun away from them. He was defending his own life. It is that simple. If he were white and the two men were African-American, would anyone be saying that he was at fault for trying to defend his life? JMHO. Sincerely. bruce.
Ziggy2525
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Looking at the GA statutes, looks like you can’t use deadly force to defend property. Also looks like you can’t claim self defense if you instigate a deadly force attack and the guy you attacked defends themselves.
Based on that, I think these guys are toast.
Based on that, I think these guys are toast.
Gene L
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CapnB, I don't think GA laws of Citizens Arrest are in the least confusing, and I live here and was a cop, as I said above. They're based on knowledge of a crime, which didn't occur here until the shooters assaulted the runner. Then there was a crime, committed by the shooters. There was NO offense committed by Avery that would give the citizens the right to interview him, much less threaten him with a gun and kill him. Avery had not committed a felony the shooters knew of and wasn't fleeing.
A Citizens Arrest requires a crime and a CA must be immediate. Delay and interviews aren't covered.
By the way, LEOs in GA require the same circumstances you mentioned above to make an arrest, except LEOs can arrest on warrants for things that did not occur in their presence and for a couple of other reasons I mentioned above.
A Citizens Arrest requires a crime and a CA must be immediate. Delay and interviews aren't covered.
By the way, LEOs in GA require the same circumstances you mentioned above to make an arrest, except LEOs can arrest on warrants for things that did not occur in their presence and for a couple of other reasons I mentioned above.
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Gene L, I agree with everything you say and I respect and appreciate your many years of experience, but it doesn’t change my opinion on the wording of that particular statute. Apparently, even one of the prosecutors originally assigned to the case wrote a letter stating the shooting was justified based on that law. Again, I’m sure there are underlying circumstances I’m not aware of, but I believe the law could have been more artfully worded.
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