Lost a fine model 58 to the ATF today.

[bigggbbruce]

Just another of the many reasons to not covet your neighbor's wife... and it goes double for LE.

So you're saying LE is more likely to shoot instead of leaving the cheating who..troubling.

Sorry, I lost it on a fishing trip.

Don't ever get caught with it after that.

 

[Bladeswitcher]

Isn't it still an ATFE rule that after a period of time, 10 years rings a bell, an FFL can purge a 4473? seems to me I remember that fact. Just curious.

20 years.

How long are licensees required to maintain ATF Forms 4473? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

How long are licensees required to maintain ATF Forms 4473?
Licensees shall retain each ATF Form 4473 for a period of not less than 20 years after the date of sale or disposition. Where a licensee has initiated a National Instant Background Check System (NICS) check for a proposed firearms transaction, but the sale, delivery, or transfer of the firearm is not made, the licensee shall record any transaction number on the Form 4473, and retain the Form 4473 for a period of not less than 5 years after the date of the NICS inquiry.

[18 U.S.C. 923(g)(1)(A); 27 CFR 478.129(b)]

 

[Bladeswitcher]

Just an FYI. If you buy a gun from a dealer who does electronic 4473s, your guns serial # WILL be submitted to the ATF. For the simple reason that the form must be complete to be able to submit it. Paper forms can be run through and the gun info added after the "proceed" is received, and then the only way the ATF gets it is when/if the records are turned in when the dealer closes the business.

This is Wrong. It's also incorrect. In addition, it's factually inaccurate. I suggest no one makes the mistake of assuming there is any truth to the bolded statement quoted above.

All the E-4473 does is generate a paper 4473. The software has no capability for transmitting information to anyone or any place. It simply doesn't.

If you believe otherwise, please read the set-up instructions for the E-4473 software and show me where/how you set the program up to transmit information: https://www.atf.gov/file/115356/download

In case you're thinking of the E-NICS program, I would remind you that specific about the gun (make, model, serial number, caliber) is not conveyed as part of a background check on a tranferee.

Now, all of this only applies to federal law. Some states do require gun registration, but that's not the 4473.

 

[Loyaljeeper]

Nothing ever surprises me with serial numbers. I got a call from dispatch to go pick up a firearm one day. I entered the pawn shop to find a very confused customer and pawn shop owner. Investigation revealed the handgun came in the door ten years prior as a loan, defaulted, and was sold to the current owner who brought it back to also get a loan on it. During this ten years the original owner realized the gun was missing sometime between 2002 and 2012. The person who brought it in was a relative of the victim and had sensed passed away.

 

[shell627]

I once was waiting on background check when the city police came in looking very serious.They came up to me and said the four inch model 65 I was buying came back as stolen. They walked off with it and the owner of shop was very apologetic.I said no problem. Clerk has already given me my money back.He said no you wanted to buy that gun.He said to clerk to take me in back they had a large batch of firearms they had bought from a large police department.I saw a really nice 681 and pointed at that and said how much clerk said boss said same price any gun.375.00 out the door! I was happy.

 

[Bladeswitcher]

I once was waiting on background check when the city police came in looking very serious.They came up to me and said the four inch model 65 I was buying came back as stolen . . .

I'm curious how that happened. Does your state have it's own background check system. Perhaps, your state requires the FFL to include information about the firearm as part of the background check. The federal NICS system does not include make, model, caliber or serial number. All the FBI gets is long gun, handgun or other.

 

[shell627]

I once was waiting on background check when the city police came in looking very serious.They came up to me and said the four inch model 65 I was buying came back as stolen. They walked off with it and the owner of shop was very apologetic.I said no problem. Clerk has already given me my money back.He said no you wanted to buy that gun.He said to clerk to take me in back they had a large batch of firearms they had bought from a large police department.I saw a really nice 681 and pointed at that and said how much clerk said boss said same price any gun.375.00 out the door! I was happy.

 

[shell627]

Sorry for double post.In answer to question in Tn .TBI does all background checks . Two weeks later gun store called me and said mistake had been made wrong number entered in Florida.Would I like model 65 now but I was happy with 681."

 

[AveragEd]

Absalom is right - state laws can be very different. Here in Pennsylvania, long gun sales go on a 4473 and a background check is run but handguns also require a PA State Police form to be completed. That form is mailed, not just retained by the dealer. In a case like this, the State Police would be aware of the gun's past and take action.

Ed

 

[jrm53]

I quit the FFL about 25 years ago I called them (ATF) and had to send my bound book and all my 4473's to Falling Waters Va. sent it registerd so they had to sigh for the package. Made copies of all the 4473 forms so if a customers gun was stolen and they never wrote the serial#'s down I could find it for them. Was glad to be out of it. Jeff

 

[Mrnurse]

Thats why I bought lots of my Pistols cash and carry years ago.

 

[Bladeswitcher]

I quit the FFL about 25 years ago I called them (ATF) and had to send my bound book and all my 4473's to Falling Waters Va. sent it registerd so they had to sigh for the package. Made copies of all the 4473 forms so if a customers gun was stolen and they never wrote the serial#'s down I could find it for them. Was glad to be out of it. Jeff

I closed my pawnshop about 18 months ago. I drove my 4473s to Kansas City (two hour drive) and delivered them to the ATF office. I figured I'd let them take care of shipping them to the OOB records center.

I agree. I was a relief to be done with it. And I was done. I thought about printing out a copy of my electronic bound book for my own records, but decided I didn't want all that personal information.

 

[Dvus]

This is Wrong. It's also incorrect. In addition, it's factually inaccurate. I suggest no one makes the mistake of assuming there is any truth to the bolded statement quoted above.

All the E-4473 does is generate a paper 4473. The software has no capability for transmitting information to anyone or any place. It simply doesn't.

That may be true for some earlier programs, but not so today. I have watched this particular program work enough times to know better. The program this dealer uses has the buyer input their info into the computer, and then the dealer pulls it up on his screen. The dealer is then required to input the guns info in before the program will go any further. Once that is done, the forms are submitted and a proceed is usually given in 60 seconds or less. Delays take a little longer. After this is done, only then is a paper copy printed with all info on it, including the serial #. The only thing left to do is sign it and drop it in the file.
So if the guns info can't be transmitted, please explain how the feds knew exactly how to find this one after 54 years and several states away. It's certainly not because of any state regulations or registrations because Oklahoma "doesn't play that way."
And the assumption that a computer or software can't transfer information is ludicrous. It can do whatever the programmer wants it to.

 

[charlie sherrill]

As mentioned earlier, a lot of different guns have the same serial number. If you have a gun with the same number as another and your serial number is run a hit will pop up. It is then up to the LE agency to read the additional info, such as Make, model, finish, barrel length.etc. to determine if this is the same stolen gun. Many times it is not. If you have a serial number with few or no letters, the chance of a hit goes up. If you have a serial number with no letters and few numbers, the chances of a hit goes up some more. I once ran a four digit serial number and got nine hits. None of the makes, models,etc. matched the gun I was checking. On more than one occasion I have had guns come back that had been stolen over 20 years ago. I think the oldest stolen gun I found was entered 48 years before I found it. The victim was still alive and still had the same phone number and got his gun back. The most common serial number mistake is somewhere from purchase to theft the wrong number, such as assembly number, is recorded from the gun and that number is reported as stolen. Run a S&W assembly number and you'll probably get multiple hits. Not too long ago I had a shop give me a receipt for a used revolver I was buying and the clerk put the assembly number down as the serial number. I got him to change my bill of sale, after I did a NICS check, to the correct number.

 

[Muley Gil]

When I first entered law enforcement, I was assigned to the desk & the jail at the sheriff's office. One night, after I had worked there for about a year, I did an NCIC check on my S&W .32-20. To my surprise, it came back stolen! However, once I read the complete entry, I realized the number belonged to a .38 special, not a .32-20.

 

[S.B.]

I do know that a FFL holder cannot access the federal system(computer) to determine if a firearm they wish to purchase is stolen prior yo doing the buy. I've questioned this before???
Steve

 

[SuperMan]

Interesting stories... I have been called twice in 50 years of firearms ownership. No big deal on either gun that had passed through my hands...

In NH interestingly enough, if one sells a handgun you have to have a record of who you sold it to...not a rifle or shotgun however.

Bob

 

[Bladeswitcher]

That may be true for some earlier programs, but not so today.

I provided a link to the set-up instructions for the ATF's E-4473 software. Do you have something newer than what's posted on the ATF website?

I have watched this particular program work enough times to know better.

Watched, but not actually personally set up or used. So noted.

The program this dealer uses has the buyer input their info into the computer, and then the dealer pulls it up on his screen. The dealer is then required to input the guns info in before the program will go any further.

Your observation is consistent with my contention that the software the buyer uses doesn't submit anything to the ATF. Regardless of whether the 4473 is filled out on paper or on a computer, the buyer provides information about himself, while the FFL records information about the gun and other details about the transfer (ID information, NICS results, etc.) All the E-4473 software does is fill out the 4473 form. BTW, the purpose of the E-4473 form is to reduce mistakes. The software won't accept a submit request unless every required field is filled in.

Once that is done, the forms are submitted and a proceed is usually given in 60 seconds or less. Delays take a little longer.

It seems you may be confusing two separate parts of the firearms transfer.

The first is the 4473 form. This is a record of a gun transfer that has been required since 1968. It's an ATF requirement. The form is basically a paper trail that allows the ATF to confirm that the transaction was handled correctly, and provide documentation if ever the gun needs to be traced. The 4473 form contains information about the gun transferred (specifically: Manufacturer/importer, Model, Serial Number, Caliber and Type). There is only one copy of the 4473 form and it remains with the FFL at his premises for a minimum of 20 years or until he goes out of business. It is not forwarded to the ATF or any other government agency (of any level) absent a criminal investigation or request from the ATF.

The second part of the gun transfer is the background check. This came about in the 1990s and it handled by the FBI. That's important to understand: The 4473 is a ATF thing. The NICS check is an FBI thing. These are not the same agency and they don't necessarily interface.

In states that use the federal NICS check system, the FFL conveys certain information about the BUYER to the FBI -- ie. name, birthdate, state of birth, height, weight, social security number (optional), citizenship status -- and the TYPE of firearm and transfer. The only options for type are long gun, handgun or other and the transfer can be a sale, pawn redemption or pre-pawn check. The FBI receives no information about the gun. They five characteristics recorded on the 4473 are not included as part of the NICS check.

As you observed, the FBI can return one of three responses -- Proceed, Deny or Delay. The results of this background check submission is recorded on the 4473 as part of the (semi) permanent record of the transfer.

After this is done, only then is a paper copy printed with all info on it, including the serial #. The only thing left to do is sign it and drop it in the file.

Well, yeah, except that the FFL must record the transfer in his A&D book. In my case, that happened electronically through the software I used to run my business. But, you make a good point. There is no step that involves providing a record of the sale to the ATF or any other government agency. The FFL is responsible for maintaining the records. The ATF checks that they were filled out correctly when they conduct a compliance inspection, but generally they only look at the past year's 4473 forms. They can also get a copy of any 4473 if they're conducting an investigation.

One important point needs to be made: Within the federal 4473/NICS firearms transfer process there is no way for any government agency to know what exact gun is being transferred AT THE TIME OF SALE. The implication of this whole discussion was that some poor schmuck was just trying to buy a gun, but while he's standing there waiting to check out, the authorities swoop in and seize the gun. I can think of no possible way for that to happen within the normal federal NICS system. Weird coincidence is technically possible, but highly unlikely.

As an aside: I once had the local cops call me while a potential gun buyer was in "further review" mode. Apparently, the FBI alerted the cops that this individual was attempting to purchase a gun. Must of been a fairly serious warrant to deserve that sort of attention, but I never heard the details since the customer had already left the store prior to me getting the call. Again, that was about the buyer, not the gun.

So if the guns info can't be transmitted, please explain how the feds knew exactly how to find this one after 54 years and several states away. It's certainly not because of any state regulations or registrations because Oklahoma "doesn't play that way."

How am I supposed to know what happened or how if I wasn't party to the situation? Neither were you, I might add. I've already mentioned that while I was in business I had police contact me three times about stolen guns. In each case, this was because I submitted information about the gun when I acquired it. As a pawnbroker I was required to report every buy or pawn (not just guns) to a for-profit/third-party database every day. The police have access to that data base and the database is set up to automatically check guns against the national hot list. Again, this was something I did because I was a pawnbroker. It was not part of the normal gun transfer process and happens at the front end (when the pawnbroker takes in the gun), not when the gun is transferred to a customer.

And the assumption that a computer or software can't transfer information is ludicrous. It can do whatever the programmer wants it to.

A computer will only do what it's told to do. I provided the set up instructions for the E-4473 form and asked you to show me any provisions for internet connection or transferring information. You have not done so. The NICS check doesn't include gun details so it can't be there. So tell me, how is this information being conveyed as a result of the firearms transfer process?

 

[bigggbbruce]

Thats why I bought lots of my Pistols cash and carry years ago.

So you may be in possession of stolen weapons. I have been checked out while shooting by LE...

Results could be a problem.

 

[rbmac52]

So you may be in possession of stolen weapons. I have been checked out while shooting by LE...

Results could be a problem.

Getting "checked out" (i.e. running gun serial numbers) by law enforcement while you are shooting is an unlawful search unless you are committing a crime while doing so.