Lost a fine model 58 to the ATF today.

[Absalom]

.... .TBI does all background checks . Two weeks later gun store called me and said mistake had been made wrong number entered in Florida.Would I like model 65 now but I was happy with 681.”

My two purchases flagged as stolen by NCIC cleared up as errors too. In both cases these were guns, a Colt and a S&W, from the pre-GCA68 era with straight numerical serials, where the NCIC parameters can cover many different models. Try to figure out how many revolvers would be covered by “S&W, .38 cal, serial #12345”, which is all NCIC seems to need for a match.

The police response was nothing as dramatic as described above, by the way. Both times, I got the distinct impression that all law enforcement involved figured they were running a fool’s errand.

The state police firearms unit doing the check told my friend the FFL to not continue the transaction while they tried to rustle up a local cop to come by and take a look. Someone did, took down some information, and told my friend to put the gun in his safe until they called him and gave him the okay to finish the transfer. It was as if they knew it would amount to nothing.

My friend happened to know the state trooper on whose desk one of the cases landed, and she told him she had a heck of a time getting the original reporting agency (in Florida) interested in digging through 40-year-old microfiche files, only to determine from barrel length and other features in the officer’s report that this couldn’t be the gun.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

In the year 2000 I had a notice in my mailbox that a registered letter awaits me at the post office. Really I thought? After going up and showing proper identification and signing, I got it.

This is a scan of said letter. I apologize as its a little washed out for so many years as it still resides in my safe to this day.
Couple of salient points, notice the purchase date, 1993, and the letter date January 2000. And they found me the owner from a 1993 transaction.

Now the rest of the story: I was shocked when I read this, ran back to my safe and the gun is still there. *** is going on. So as I calmed down and reread carefully I found the issue! Serial number in letter was listed as 0000X (I only hid the last digit, the zeros are correct). I own 00000X not 0000X!! Whoa...lol. So I call that Sheriff's dept and ask for an email addy so I can respond. The deputy tells me we don't have email here yet! Ok really now? So I draft a letter back telling them there error and that I still had 00000X in my possession and included a photo of the serial number. Sent it back registered mail too. Never heard another thing.

I still have this firearm in my safe I might add. Cost me $85 new in 1993 and have the receipt as well. By the way the last digit is a 7. Pretty cool I think. And looks like "they" can find you too anytime.

Norinco????

 

[pantannojack]

So sorry for your loss, and that of your safe mates as well. They must have looked to the 58 for wisdom.

I recall a "Hill Street Blues" episode when a Python came into the property room as used in a crime and was scheduled for destruction. The custodian falsified paperwork on it and gave the Colt to his brother in law. Years later a burglar stole the Python and then the gun was found at a second crime scene. A number check came back on the station employee. I don't remember how the story ended.

 

[Art Doc]

Been on both sides of a stolen gun. About 40 years ago I bought a Winchester Model 88 from a local shop. Maybe 2 weeks later I get a call from local PD telling me the gun was stolen and that an officer would come to my home to pick it up. He did. I told the shop owner (he must have known because the cops would have contacted him for my info) and he said that was a real shame. He did not offer to refund my money. I guess I could have sued but the gun cost $200 and it didn't seem worth it.

In 1985 I had 23 guns stolen. Two were recovered within a year and I was called by the cops to come and get them. A rifle was recovers 18 years later in 2003. Wish more would turn up. Among the missing guns were a 3.5" 27-2, a 6.5" 29-2, 22 Diamond Back, a Python and a couple pristine sporting rifles.

I suspect but don't know that any stolen gun held by the feds does not get returned.

 

[DR505]

A friend of mine had a Browning Auto-5 stolen from his place in Illinois. Seven years later he rented a cabin in Michigan. When he checked into the cabin he found a Browning Auto-5 standing in the closet. It was his.

I did an internship at the Cook County States Attorney's Office. I remember looking at all the firearms slated for destruction. Most memorable were some WWII German firearms with Nazi proof markings on them that had been used in various crimes.

 

[pawncop]

As has been mentioned earlier, many agencies have a pawn shop detail, I was the officer that worked that detail.

I have a number of stories (some I have shared here).

I am really curious as to why the ATF was involved in the seizure of the revolver. When I located a stolen firearm out of state I never involved anyone other than the reporting agency.

As to an earlier post, firearms stay in NCIC forever. One of the headaches is for the reporting agency to locate old records. I once located a rifle reported stolen back in the 70’s and the agency could not locate the original report. I requested they remove the S/N from NCIC and I did not continue any additional police action.

One of the lessons I learned early on was not to seize a firearm from a pawnshop until I was absolutely correct and certain the firearm I suspected was actually the one reported.

There were a number of cases I put an investigator hold on a firearm and then it turned out it was not the one reported. The person pawning the firearm never knew of the investigation.

One of my other responsibilities was to keep track of firearms recovered by outside agencies. Many times our guns were recovered during federal drug enforcement action. This can be very difficult to track as the personnel changes are frequent and with due respect to my federal brothers, the return of firearms to the state agencies is not a high priority on their agenda.

If anyone has any specific questions regarding Texas practice I will monitor this thread for a while.

I hope you find this helpful.

 

[tedog]

A friend of mine had a Browning Auto-5 stolen from his place in Illinois. Seven years later he rented a cabin in Michigan. When he checked into the cabin he found a Browning Auto-5 standing in the closet. It was his.

I did an internship at the Cook County States Attorney's Office. I remember looking at all the firearms slated for destruction. Most memorable were some WWII German firearms with Nazi proof markings on them that had been used in various crimes.

That is amazing. What are the odds of your friend getting his A-5 back, yet finding it in another state?

 

[S.B.]

A friend of mine had a Browning Auto-5 stolen from his place in Illinois. Seven years later he rented a cabin in Michigan. When he checked into the cabin he found a Browning Auto-5 standing in the closet. It was his./QUOTE]

Good to hear there are some with happy endings.
Steve

 

[Bladeswitcher]

That is amazing. What are the odds of your friend getting his A-5 back, yet finding it in another state?

Nearly impossible. At least highly improbable. Hard to believe, actually.

 

[UncleEd]

As I read the OP, it was the cop's personal firearm, not his department-issued service revolver. I don't think the Chicago PD ever issued M58s..

Chicago police receive an allowance to buy
their own gun from an approved list. The
Model 58, or rather the .41, was OK for a
police officer to carry back then.

Reform police Supt. Orlando Wilson approved
the caliber. A criminologist, he also was the
one who created the checkerboard blue/white
which follows the British police uniform.

Chicago's newest police cars also sport the
blue/white checkerboard.

For quick reference, see the TV series Chicago PD.

One thing about the Chicago PD, even in the days
when the revolver was king among police in the
U.S., Chicago cops also used 9mm and .45 ACPs.
Met one uniformed officer who had his .38 on his
hip and a Browning HP in a shoulder holster.

 

[ldausmc1369]

Got a call a few years back from a SO concerning a SKS with a serial number coming back to me. Bought at a gun show in Lville. Don’t remember a 4473 so they must have traced it through a receipt. I checked gun safe and rifle in question was still peacefully at rest. Assured the deputy I had questioned rifle in hand.. Norinco Type 56..he also has in hand, a Norinco with what he said was same serial number.. most import serial numbers are electropenned so I think someone along the line transposed or misread a digit.. nothing more ever resulted from the call..

 

[bulletslap]

About 15 years ago I gave my Son a Winchester 101 I bought from a guy I met at the skeet range. Years go by and he moves to Lubbock, and the Gun is stolen from his pickup. A couple of months later the Gun is recovered by the Lubbock PD, from a Pawnshop they call him with good news/bad news.

They recovered the Gun he report stolen, however it was reported stolen before, in 1988 ! My son told the Popo "&*#@$ I didn't steal it, I was 6 years old in 1988" my Dad gave it to me. Then he asked me who I bought it from, Hell if I know some guy I met once at the skeet range back around 1999.

So some how the Lubbock PD puts the original owner in touch with my Son, and they hit it off over the phone. The gentleman purchased it in 1966 on they way back from Viet Nam in Japan, it was stolen from his pickup. My Son is a vet also and they form a friendship.

My son tells him how he got the Gun, and the original owner sells it to him for a hundred dollars, as he is too old to hunt with it. Plus the 175 dollars my Son had to pay the Pawn Shop for the loan amount on the gun. Yes you have to buy your stolen property back from Pawn Brokers in Texas.

It all worked out, and no Cops came looking for me.

Btw my advice is to get a safe for your truck.

 

[DR505]

Nearly impossible. At least highly improbable. Hard to believe, actually.

Well, I took him at his word...never knew him to exaggerate. The shotgun was very much the worse for wear.

 

[mbliss57]

Interesting. I lost one several years ago. One of those FBI issued S&W 1076. All legally purchased and transferred. It was the pawn shop from sending state that had to furnish the numbers to local Police that flagged the gun. It was stolen from a retired FBI agent in late 1990s. What was interesting or at least different was that the ATF was never involved just the detective in NC and our Local police detective that made me turn it in. I had to write up a statement of what had transpired and off went it to who knows where.

 

[BillyMagg]

Yes

Should have taken off the stocks before surrendering.

He did.......

 

[S.B.]

I'm sure you've all heard the rumor that most guns involved in several felonies have been in a police property room at one time or another?
Steve

 

[toroflow1]

Just an FYI. If you buy a gun from a dealer who does electronic 4473s, your guns serial # WILL be submitted to the ATF. For the simple reason that the form must be complete to be able to submit it. Paper forms can be run through and the gun info added after the "proceed" is received, and then the only way the ATF gets it is when/if the records are turned in when the dealer closes the business.

FYI - regarding the last part of your paragraph. My FFL dealer has occasional visits from the ATF. The agents have a portable scanning "wand" that they can electronically scan 4473s if they wish. Not sure what the criteria is for them scanning a 4473, but don't ever rule that out.

 

[iskra]

I read about half the posts before giving up as too many! A few points re a few posts I did read.
1. S&W assembly numbers are a traditional headache for the unwary observer unacquainted with the nuance of S&W serialization replication history! We understand that fact of crane area serialization history! The average owner recording or "officer on the scene" viewing such recovery, likely doesn't. Where the butt number is obscured and a readable number appears in the crane area, it's recorded. Thereafter becoming "the number of record"! Innocent owner "in possession" sufficiently canny to point out the fact of "assembly number only" and as such invalid "descriptor". Ironically, In the instance referenced in yhis Post above, perhaps as likely it was the same gun as stolen and misrecorded then!
2. Federal jurisdiction attaching to stolen firearm crime. My bet, such is by federal law or regulations designating such also a Federal crime. Otherwise, as noted, 'fed violation' attaching re "interstate transportation of stolen property", as crime. If stolen as recorded in state A and found in state B, short of proving levitation, de facto crime! 3. ATF, without more than determining a firearm stolen, yet with responsibility to take it into possession on behalf of the local jurisdiction (& legitimate owner) - typically the one generating the crime report. The same for one local agency 'finder' assisting another agency 'reporting'.
I'm 'assuming' somewhat here. As former Federal agent & later attorney, incorporating some assumptions, since never working firearms crimes. Please don't take any of my words literally here 'as the law'!
A last remark, that "serial numbers" of firearms remain something of a '**** shoot'. Not just misrecording! Prior to 1968 Federal Gun Control Act, merely recording such as the makers name, chambering and serial number, tending to be inclusive regrading many guns requiring "model numbers included" to distinguish. I've wondered how many miscarriages of justice have occurred as a result of 'conclusive assumption' a guns serial number without proper full descriptors, was itself presented as "conclusive & unique identifier"!
Best!
John

 

[Mike0251]

Norinco????

Yes it is!

 

[DR505]

Does anyone recall the approximately 10 Browning M2 .50 caliber machine guns recovered from narco traffickers that had serial numbers matching a batch of M2s supposedly destroyed at Ft Huachuca? The Commanding General insisted his were destroyed and these were “duplicate” serial numbers.