Lost a fine model 58 to the ATF today.

[Mike0251]

In the year 2000 I had a notice in my mailbox that a registered letter awaits me at the post office. Really I thought? After going up and showing proper identification and signing, I got it.

This is a scan of said letter. I apologize as its a little washed out for so many years as it still resides in my safe to this day.
Couple of salient points, notice the purchase date, 1993, and the letter date January 2000. And they found me the owner from a 1993 transaction.

Now the rest of the story: I was shocked when I read this, ran back to my safe and the gun is still there. *** is going on. So as I calmed down and reread carefully I found the issue! Serial number in letter was listed as 0000X (I only hid the last digit, the zeros are correct). I own 00000X not 0000X!! Whoa...lol. So I call that Sheriff's dept and ask for an email addy so I can respond. The deputy tells me we don't have email here yet! Ok really now? So I draft a letter back telling them there error and that I still had 00000X in my possession and included a photo of the serial number. Sent it back registered mail too. Never heard another thing.

I still have this firearm in my safe I might add. Cost me $85 new in 1993 and have the receipt as well. By the way the last digit is a 7. Pretty cool I think. And looks like "they" can find you too anytime.

 

[Bladeswitcher]

I still have this firearm in my safe I might add. Cost me $85 new in 1993 and have the receipt as well . . . looks like "they" can find you too anytime.

If you bought the gun new, it's a pretty simple matter to trace the gun from manufacturer to distributor to FFL to customer. It gets much more complicated when there's a subsequent resale. Once the gun changes hands between unlicensed persons the trail goes cold unless the non-FFLs keep good records and are willing to share them.

The FEDERAL/ATF system does not have registry of who owns what gun. Those records exist only in the form of old 4473 forms turning to dust in file cabinets and boxes at the premises of thousands of FFLs. That said, some states do register guns. Also, records from closed gun shops go into storage at ATF's out-of-business records center.

 

[Mike0251]

That is correct!

 

[steelslaver]

The 4473 stays at the point of transfer FFL. If it is a new gun they can trace it by contacting manufacture, then distributor then receiving FFL. Also if a gun has always been transferred by a FFL they could trace it from FFL to FFL to FFL to final owner. If at some point it sold or gifted via privat parties then the BATF would have to find last buyer via FFL and ask him what he did with it. There is no federal law requiring a record of a private sale or a law saying you must remember. Lying and saying you lost it in a boating accident would be probably be felony. Knowingly giving false information to a federal agent is a crime. Having a bad memory is not.

Many states, counties or cities have laws requiring pawnshops to turn over a list of all or certain things that they take in. I suppose some places might require that of gun dealers also.

I have heard the stolen gun list is full of problems. Incorrectly recorded serial numbers, things like the K at the beginning of a serial number left off. People recording the assembly number instead of actual serial number, use of the same serial numbers by different manufactures, plus prior to 1968 a manufacture could use the same serial number on different models like S&W once did.

 

[Jack Flash]

The most amazing part to me is that the gun is an ex cop gun and it changed hands so many times over half a century and is still in such excellent condition. I was born a few years before that gun was and I wish I was in that good of shape.

As I read the OP, it was the cop's personal firearm, not his department-issued service revolver. I don't think the Chicago PD ever issued M58s.

I got a call recently from the local Sheriffs Department questioning me about a handgun I had purchased from a Pawn Shop. I had since sold the gun. The deputy said the gun was stolen 5-6 years ago. The victim at that time could not locate the serial numbers of the guns that were stolen. When cleaning up a few months ago, he found the list he had made of all his serial numbers and contacted the Sheriffs Department which immediately posted them on NCIC and mine was a hit showing it had been bought and sold by a local Pawn Shop. The crook had confessed to the crime and the deputy said they didn't need the gun for evidence, but would like to have it just as icing on the cake. I could not remember the guys name I sold it to and was just told if I ever did remember to contact them, which would mean that they would take the gun, I would have to refund the money received and then go to the Pawn Shop and hope they would refund my money etc. The Pawn Shop would wind up being the one out of their money and that really wouldn't be fair since when they bought the gun, it had not been reported stolen. The only recourse for the Pawn Shop would be to file a judgement against the thief and of course would never see one dollar. The deputy said if I didn't remember, it really was not a problem since they had him and everybody involved was happy.

I'll bet the guy it was originally stolen from wasn't any too happy. I guess you could argue it was his own lack of organization that caused this result, but still he's screwed. As you said, not a snowball's chance in hell the thief will pay him a cent.

 

[gwpercle]

Computers never forget ...once a name and/or number goes in ...
It's there forever .

I had a revolver stolen in Baton Rouge , La.
25 years later it is recovered at a Pawn Shop in Kingman , Arizona .
The computer had it listed as stolen and they returned it to me .
Gary

 

[model48mag]

Isn't it still an ATFE rule that after a period of time, 10 years rings a bell, an FFL can purge a 4473? seems to me I remember that fact. Just curious.

 

[s&wchad]

Bummer that you had to surrender the gun. I suspect it was listed as stolen and will be turned into a manhole cover! As others have said, you should have swapped the stocks with a set of pachmayrs.

I bought a beautiful Flattop Ruger Blackhawk .44 from a friend in March of this year. My friend is in his 80's and purchased the gun used back in the mid-1980's. Michigan has handgun registration, so I dropped off the paperwork at my local PD.

A few days later, I received a call from Kathy in the PD records department (a very nice lady who knows me well). She informed me the Ruger Blackhawk .44, serial number 7363, was reported stolen out of Las Vegas in the late 1990's. My heart skipped a few beats...

I regained my composure and asked if she had any details on the gun. She informed me that the stolen gun had a 7-1/2" barrel. My gun has a 6-1/2" barrel, which was the only barrel length available that early in production on the .44 Blackhawk. Ruger duplicated serial numbers on their various models in the 50's and 60's (they all started at 1), so a 7-1/2" .44 with serial number 7363 had to be a Super Blackhawk, not a Blackhawk. Completely different model...

I explained all this to Kathy and she said she would call me back. Registration information is done online these days, but they were previously tracked on file cards by the Michigan State Police. The MSP didn't add the old records to the database (they go back to about 1935), so Kathy had to phone the MSP and have them dig out the old record. She was able to verify that my friend purchased it 16 years before the make/model/serial number was reported as stolen. His original registration record listed the gun as a Ruger "Single Action" .44 with a 6-1/2" barrel, with no mention of Blackhawk (which is stamped right on the frame)!

Happy ending for me and Kathy contacted the Vegas police and informed they that the stolen gun is actually a Super Blackhawk, not a Blackhawk. Hopefully, they updated the report.

 

[Rule3]

So in other words the common expression,
"I lost all my guns when the boat sank in the lake"

Will not hold water?

 

[Drm50]

Ive bought stolen guns 3 times in 50yrs, that I know of. Lucky for me they were legally bought and transferred. I never had one when ATF tracked them down. They had been traded or sold. Unless the gun is needed for evidence I think it stinks that they take it from last legal owner.

 

[mdf9183]

As far as pawn shop records go in Texas the PD gets a copy of not only pawned guns but all pawned property. Most Depts. have Pawn Detail that all they do is check stolen property against pawned property. Most of the shops have a their records on disk and just give the PD a copy.

 

[SAFireman]

I had purchased a gun on this forum a few years ago. It got stolen (presumably by a USPS employee) and has never been recovered.

I get an email and a phone call every year from the OIG agent that handled the case. He checks to see if the gun has appeared or been recovered and returned. We have a nice chat and catch up until next year.

 

[rubiranch]

So today I had to meet an ATF Special Agent to hand over a beautiful S serial numbered model 58 that I purchased a few months back at a local gun store. Apparently it was used in a cop on cop murder in Chicago back in 1966. It disappeared directly afterwards and was traced through a dealer to a man who "lost it in a lake while fishing" until it popped when I did my paperwork, 54 years later. Originally it belonged to a cop who came home and found his wife in bed with another cop. Now the chances of ever getting it back are over next to the frozen hell border. Now that I know the guns history, however tarnished, it just makes me want it back more. The gun store at least stepped up and refunded my money on a gift card.
It just goes to show, it doesn't matter where you buy your guns, you can still get one with a checkered past.

Sorry about this.
I just couldn't like your post.

 

[Old Wheel Man]

I spent 37 years in Law Enforcement in two different states. Both states required pawn shops to supply a copy of all pawn tickets to local Law Enforcement. The Departments had personnel to check all serial numbered items through the NCIC database. Certain items are purged after a designated time period, but much like James Bond's diamonds.....Firearms are Forever and do not get purged. Thirty years ago I bought a beautiful S&W Model 41. I received a call a few days later from a friend at another agency telling me they had received a hit on the serial number. Further checking indicated the entering agency had inverted two numbers. Mistakes do happen when you have people involved.

 

[Dvus]

Just an FYI. If you buy a gun from a dealer who does electronic 4473s, your guns serial # WILL be submitted to the ATF. For the simple reason that the form must be complete to be able to submit it. Paper forms can be run through and the gun info added after the "proceed" is received, and then the only way the ATF gets it is when/if the records are turned in when the dealer closes the business.

 

[Farmer17]

I have a 1967 S model M58 .41 Magnum San Fransico Police gun that's about 98% condition I'll be listing in the classifieds here soon if you need another M58.

 

[03hemi]

Sorry, I lost it on a fishing trip.

 

[Borderboss]

DVUS, thanks for the interesting posts and the all the details. At least you got a good story out of the whole thing.

It was mentioned earlier, but Chicago was a key term for me. They’ve had some police evidence show back up at the wrong places over the years. A cop on cop murder and missing evidence might get noticed, even if way past it’s prime.

The Feds also seem to really hammer them every few years or so, making some big show about fighting corruption. Frankly Chicagoland seems to have cleaned up its act - The last two Governors have not been indicted (yet). Blago, three Governors back, got Trump to commute his federal corruption sentence a few months ago.

Nothing clean about the politicians here. The feds are all over the Chicago pols. They've been getting some to wear wires, and others to flip. The saga isn't over yet.

 

[S.B.]

So sad for your loss. Glad you did the right thing.
Steve

 

[junglefighter]

This was very interesting reading and I would like to thank everyone who added to this post.I have nothing to contribute,just saying thanks.