S&W 3rd Gen compared to Beretta 92X

[DMcBB]

Hi Team 3rd gen,
I was looking at the Beretta 92x today and it kinda reminded me of what a more modern 3rd gen S&W could be if Smith still supported the line. DA/SA, integral rail, user configurable safety/decocker vs decocker only, modern sights, and a flat grip that I think can be replaced with a curved back strap.

Does any one here have one, or have any thoughts on them? They are relatively cheap for an all metal framed pistol. I'm kinda tempted...

 

[Trooper224]

I don't have a 92X, but I do have six 92s including a Wilson Combat Centurion Tactical. In my opinion, the 92X family is an excellent offering. If Beretta had introduced them before I bought the Wilson, I may just have bought a 92X Centurion instead and saved myself several hundred dollars.

 

[Echo40]

The Beretta 92X is a premium competition grade pistol which retails for over $1000, ergo only Performance Center 3rd Gens are likely to match it in terms of quality/features.

Furthermore, only special order Law Enforcement model 3rd Gens liks the 4006TSW CHP have integral rails, and none of them (that I know of) are built to the same specifications of Performance Center models, although they are generally built to higher specifications than standard commercial examples.

 

[DMcBB]

The Beretta 92X is a premium competition grade pistol which retails for over $1000, ergo only Performance Center 3rd Gens are likely to match it in terms of quality/features.

You're thinking of the 92X Performance model. The standard models go for under $600 according to gun.deals.


Search results for "92x" | gun.deals

When used 3rd gens are $300 and up, the Beretta seems like it could be a contender.

 

[Racer X]

If Beretta can make money building and selling them, why can't S&W make an all metal semi-auto?

 

[Trooper224]

If Beretta can make money building and selling them, why can't S&W make an all metal semi-auto?

Wanna rehash this yet again?

Berettas production was maintained by government contracts S&W never had. Beretta was obligated to maintain that production as long as the government wanted it. As such, they've maintained the production line and support mechanisms for it, something S&W dropped years ago. S&W would have to retool and retrain a workforce for something that would be considered a niche product. The cost to the consumer would be such that few would be sold. Given the company's current QC standards, they likely be trash.

 

[Echo40]

Seeing as a few PDs only begrudgingly switched to the M&P once Smith & Wesson outright refused to continue production of 3rd Gen pistols, they could have easily afforded to retool and had said PDs threatened to switch to SIG rather than caving in, then I believe S&W most likely would have retooled considering that they had already done so before for special orders.

Smith & Wesson simply doesn't want to make 3rd Gen pistols anymore because they're less profitable due to the amount of work that goes into their production as opposed to the M&P Series.

It's a shame, really... Clearly there's a market for all metal pistols, especially in competitive shooting circles, so with the right kind of ad campaign they could easily revive the 3rd Gen series of pistols and sell them on the civilian market as a luxury line of pistols, especially if they included the 1006 and other such models which are long out of production and no longer easily purchased on the used market at low prices, but oh well, not profitable enough for them to consider worth the effort, I suppose.

 

[Trooper224]

If you study the difference in profit margin between all metal pistols and polymer pistols it's a wonder any company still makes the former.

 

[Echo40]

Market Diversity.

Try as analysts might, one simply cannot predict consumer trends with 100% reliability and sometimes demand for that which was previously undesirable can skyrocket.

Take the Smith & Wesson Model 29 for example, despite debuting to some fanfare in 1955 and holding the title of "the most powerful (commercially produced) handgun in the world" it didn't achieve mainstream popularity until after the release of the film Dirty Harry in 1971, and at which point it was actually out of production, but the overwhelming demand generated by a single Motion Picture not only brought the Model 29 back into production and made it far more profitable that ever before, but has kept it in production to this very day.

Furthermore, sometimes companies just like to play it safe and stick with a popular product which has attained a legacy following, that way they have something to fall back on and rely upon should the popularity/profitability of newer products decrease or a new prospect fail to attain mass market appeal or be profitable enough to continue production.

 

[Neon Horse]

I have a compact 92x... It's sweet! The slide to frame fit is excellent... Smooth! I also have some a3 models. They're all excellent and the X line brings a lot of value and a3 specs for a great price. I got my Compact for $512. Not bad!

I plan to add a threaded barrel to make a mini-M9a3 for fun.

The grip is great on these models- I like the Vertec grip and the ability to make it also feel like the standard 92 series (FS, G, S, etc).

3 mags are also included. The pistol comes mostly with steel parts (though I believe the full size comes with a plastic guiderod- unsure as to why). The FS series and other models went to plastic, but the X is almost all steel again. Great!

I'm a fan of metal pistols. These are great pistols for the price.

 

[WR Moore]

Seeing as a few PDs only begrudgingly switched to the M&P once Smith & Wesson outright refused to continue production of 3rd Gen pistols, they could have easily afforded to retool and had said PDs threatened to switch to SIG rather than caving in, then I believe S&W most likely would have retooled considering that they had already done so before for special orders.

You have a decidedly optimistic view of tooling costs. Plus, the lost revenue from production lines taken down for tooling changes. Tooling changes would include both setup and resumption of regular production.

There's also another factor at work here: having been issued both 3rd generation and M&Ps, the M&P is the better combat weapon.

 

[Echo40]

Regardless, certain Law Enforcement Agencies including the California Highway Patrol really didn't want to move away from 3rd Gen Pistols and obviously their order alone was previously enough for Smith & Wesson to retool and resume production of the 4006TSW, not to mention make modifications to the design in order to meet their specifications which obviously required more machining.

Also, aside from being lighter weight and having higher magazine capacity, (two things which could be addressed for 3rd Gens with a redesign) how is the M&P a "better combat weapon" exactly?
Honestly, these days I often see folks asserting that weight differences alone render older, all-metal firearms obsolete, but there's no such thing as a free lunch, and lighter weight begets harsher recoil impulse, hence why so many folks have moved away from carrying more powerful cartridges. So yeah, I beg to differ that weight alone instantaneously renders one firearm better than the other, nor do I subscribe to the demonstrably false assertion that striker-fire triggers are better because you get a consistently springy, mushy, or sloppy pull which is somehow beneficial towards accuracy.

 

[18DAI]

Interesting how many LE Agencies have dumped the m&p and have gone on to something else. Many in a VERY short period of time. After getting them for free too.

Guess nobody told them it was "...a better combat weapon.." Regards 18DAI

 

[WR Moore]

certain Law Enforcement Agencies including the California Highway Patrol really didn't want to move away from 3rd Gen Pistols and obviously their order alone was previously enough for Smith & Wesson to retool and resume production of the 4006TSW, not to mention make modifications to the design in order to meet their specifications which obviously required more machining.

That was when the 3rd generation was still in production. The quantity probably fell within the standing practice of filling a special version of current product if the order would provide a profit.

Also, aside from being lighter weight and having higher magazine capacity, (two things which could be addressed for 3rd Gens with a redesign) how is the M&P a "better combat weapon" exactly?

Two major points: MUCH lower bore axis which reduces muzzle flip and the same trigger pull all the time. This makes much more difference that you realize. The effort the trigger needs was also a very nice compromise between the initial weight of the TDA trigger and is/was very close to average out of the box SA weight. The trigger qualities that you despise didn't make any difference in practical terms. In fact, average qualification scores went up. I was surprised at how many went out and bought their very own M&Ps after experiencing the issue pistol (although some chose different calibers/versions).

Come to think of it, the M&Ps adaptability to hand size and reach to the trigger is much better than many of the 3rd generations. 3rd generations using the 5906/4006 frame needed massaging with a Dremel and a grinding wheel to eliminate a sharp edge near the magazine catch for many people.

I happen to have personal experience with "quality" triggers of various types. I can relate to your preferences. The major point being, as a service sidearm, those qualities aren't significant.

Finally, S&W needs to stay in business. In order to do that, they have to make money. Someone mentioned price above. When the 1000 series went out of production, we had to add 4006's. When we couldn't get 10 mm ammo in sufficient quantities, we got a quote on 4006's to have everyone with one. When the sales rep showed up with a pair of M&P's, the reaction was a groan. After a whole bunch of us shot them the reaction was: "When/where can I get one!" (the two sales samples were bought by firearms instructors/armorers) We bought everyone a new service pistol and web gear for what the 4006's would have cost. Possibly with a few bucks left over.

I do know the .357 Sig version wasn't a success and isn't in production. Nor is S&W advising conversion to the caliber.

 

[Trooper224]

certain Law Enforcement Agencies including the California Highway Patrol.

As far as I know, the only agency wishing to remain with the 3rd Gen was the CHP.

Who were the others?

 

[18DAI]

West Virginia State Police, NYPD, RCMP. Those are the agencies that still wanted to purchase 3rd gens that immediately come to mind.

There were others too. A few Sheriffs departments in CA......but I don't recall what counties. Regards 18DAI

 

[Erocksmash]

I have the WC Beretta centurion tactical and I absolutely am in love with it, but.... I also have a DPA5906 and I prefer that over the Beretta. The DPA5906 only comes out every so often. The Beretta however will be the new EDC i like it so much

 

[BAM-BAM]

I have the WC Beretta centurion tactical and I absolutely am in love with it, but.... I also have a DPA5906 and I prefer that over the Beretta. The DPA5906 only comes out every so often. The Beretta however will be the new EDC i like it so much

LOL..... got the same two guns

 

[Echo40]

That was when the 3rd generation was still in production. The quantity probably fell within the standing practice of filling a special version of current product if the order would provide a profit.

I'm referring to the 4006TSW CHP models with the integral accessory rail, which was a special order made by the CHP to replace their original 4006s after Smith & Wesson had discontinued the 3rd Gen Series.

Two major points: MUCH lower bore axis which reduces muzzle flip and the same trigger pull all the time. This makes much more difference that you realize. The effort the trigger needs was also a very nice compromise between the initial weight of the TDA trigger and is/was very close to average out of the box SA weight. The trigger qualities that you despise didn't make any difference in practical terms. In fact, average qualification scores went up. I was surprised at how many went out and bought their very own M&Ps after experiencing the issue pistol (although some chose different calibers/versions).

Come to think of it, the M&Ps adaptability to hand size and reach to the trigger is much better than many of the 3rd generations. 3rd generations using the 5906/4006 frame needed massaging with a Dremel and a grinding wheel to eliminate a sharp edge near the magazine catch for many people.

I happen to have personal experience with "quality" triggers of various types. I can relate to your preferences. The major point being, as a service sidearm, those qualities aren't significant.

Finally, S&W needs to stay in business. In order to do that, they have to make money. Someone mentioned price above. When the 1000 series went out of production, we had to add 4006's. When we couldn't get 10 mm ammo in sufficient quantities, we got a quote on 4006's to have everyone with one. When the sales rep showed up with a pair of M&P's, the reaction was a groan. After a whole bunch of us shot them the reaction was: "When/where can I get one!" (the two sales samples were bought by firearms instructors/armorers) We bought everyone a new service pistol and web gear for what the 4006's would have cost. Possibly with a few bucks left over.

I do know the .357 Sig version wasn't a success and isn't in production. Nor is S&W advising conversion to the caliber.

I'm not arguing that the M&P isn't an advancement in some ways over the 3rd Gens, merely that I disagree that it's a "superior combat weapon" in every conceivable way.

I lack any personal experience (anecdotal or otherwise) on the matter with which to counter your account of how police scored in qualification tests between 3rd Gens and the M&P Series, but considering the individual background, skillset, and firearms experience between officers, I don't feel that such information is particularly relevant, much less definitive in regards to which is supposedly better than the other.
However, I will say this much, one of the major advancements in modern firearms design which is often times overlooked is ergonomics, the attempt to design a firearm that anyone of any skillset can pick up and shoot well because it sits comfortably in their hands and points naturally, ergo it makes perfect sense that the M&P would beget higher qualifications scores in general, especially when it comes with replaceable backstraps which allow it to be more easily fit to a variety of hand sizes. Competitively, the 3rd Gens had a thick, vertical grip which simply could not fit well in the hands of some and thus they would obviously have lower scores attempting to qualify with a 3rd Gens.

But once again, as previously stated, there's no reason why 3rd Gen pistols couldn't be updated to include all of the advancements present in the M&P Series.

 

[DMcBB]

Well this topic has been a great discussion, and I didn't expect it to get into the profitability of metal pistols vs. polymer pistols and how different police departments qualify with 3rd gens vs. M&P, but it certainly is eye opening!

For those of you who have the Beretta, how do the trigger and sights compare to a 3rd gen or a Sig? I love my 3rd gens, but I wish they had more sight options like how every 3rd party sight company supports the Sig P-series pistols. Also, the triggers are a little heavier than I'd like, whereas a Sig can get worked down to as low as a 2.5 lbs trigger.