Top Strap Flame Cutting Fix Recommendations

Shoot flame throwers, expect flames. ;) I'm curious as to what load has produced this result. There may be other options.

I was working up two powders trying to push a 125 gr semi jhp to as close to 1450 fps as possible without excess pressure. I live in California where it's a requirement to go through a background check to buy ammo and I am prevented from ordering ammo online. Even if I was willing to submit to the unconstitutional background check to buy ammo, good self defense ammo in 357 mag is nearly impossible to find on the shelves during the interesting times we live in. So I wanted to reproduce the 1450 fps round of years past that had such a good rep for self defense just so I'd have a batch on hand. Like I said I rarely shoot 125 gr ammo out of my 686 with the vast majority of the 3000+ rounds that have gone though it being 158 gr hardcast (although the indoor ranges no longer allow exposed lead ammo so I have been shooting more fully plated ammo recently).

The max loads I tested in pushing the 125 gr bullets were 22.3 gr of Alliant Power Pro 300-MP and 18.3 gr of Vihta Vuori N110. There were some signs of pressure (minor primer flattening) with the 300-MP but the N110 was fine.
 
I saw online that someone placed a piece of spring steel above the forcing cone on a S&W revolver, but there were no details on the type of spring steel or where to get a piece that fits neatly without much fitting.
The Factory is who does that. Here is my 16 year old 2" Model 327

flame%20sheilds.jpg


It is for the Scandium Alloy frames

If/When the shield is cut through on the alloy revolver the factory replaces it

Your stainless revolver will not cut through the top strap enough to cause catastrophic failure. This is normal

I have been loading the Winchester 125 JHP over 21.7 grains of H110 since the late 1970s. It is one of my favorite loads

My family and my self have put many tens of thousands of these down range through our Smith & Wessons. I have no idea how many 8 pound jugs of H110 we have burned through during those 4+ decades, but it is a lot
 
Work up a good, hot 125 grain load, load a couple hundred for future use, then concentrate on milder, heavier bullet loads for 99% of your normal shooting, and your gun will be fine.

Larry

This is exactly my intention. I shoot 158 gr hardcast outdoors and 158 gr plated indoors, but wanted to have a reserve of full power 125 gr ammo just in case the shtf in my neighborhood one day.

I clean my firearms after every shooting session and have never noticed the flame cutting until this latest outing to test the full power ammo. The forcing cone erosion had been there previously.
 
One thing I notice is that OP's revolver bbl only has flame cutting to the edge & face of the bbl itself at the 12 oclock position,,and that seems to have cut into the top strap right above it.

No other portion of the circumference of the barrel face is effected by any of the same type of damage.

Unlike Post #10, Lou the Welder's 357 where the entire bbl face shows the same type damage s I would expect it to.

I realize that Lou's may have a much higher round count and thus more damage to it.
But I'd still expect the OP's gun to show what damage we do see at the 12oclock position not only there,,but evenly all around the breech face of the bbl.

Could the bbl face be 'off' square with an extra wide gap at the top,,or even the face of the cylinder not be square with the bbl face?

Yes the 12 o'clock damage caught my eye too. I suspect you are correct about the cylinder not being square with the barrel, but accuracy has always been excellent so I haven't worried too much about it. It might be time to give S&W a call and perhaps return the revolver for some maintenance work after my load development is finished.
 
The Factory is who does that. Here is my 16 year old 2" Model 327

flame%20sheilds.jpg

Thanks for that. Did the factory have to recess the top strap to fit the shield? There's adequate space on my 686 for a thin plate to be inserted without milling. I don't think I'd want to remove material from the top strap to fit a shield though. Can stainless be welded?
 
Colt SSA is correct that S/W did that for several models of light frame guns. But be advised that I handled at least 4-5 of those type 2" 38s that the shield came loose partially blocking the barrel and then hit by a bullet or gas became mangled. Had to tap the cylinder to even get them open to unload so they could be sent to the factory others the shield just popped out. I thought S/W discontinued making them like that, but I could be wrong about that.

Just looked at an add here for a 340 M&P and it HAS the shield so they are still using them.Maybe they got it figured out..
 
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Thanks for that. Did the factory have to recess the top strap to fit the shield? There's adequate space on my 686 for a thin plate to be inserted without milling. I don't think I'd want to remove material from the top strap to fit a shield though. Can stainless be welded?
That shield is in place on each and every Scandium framed Smith & Wesson revolver that is chambered in a Magnum (32 Magnum ?) caliber and even on some non-Magnums like the 45 Long Colt and 10MM Auto.

That plate has been in use for just shy of two decades now

Yes the top strap is relieved so that the plate sits flush

Absolutly Stainless can be welded but do not let someone weld on your 686


If you are concerned over Safety and can not reconcile everything you read on the Internet . . . . Then send the gun to Smith & Wesson and let them inspect it for you

Issue Solved
 
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One thing I notice is that OP's revolver bbl only has flame cutting to the edge & face of the bbl itself at the 12 oclock position,,and that seems to have cut into the top strap right above it.

No other portion of the circumference of the barrel face is effected by any of the same type of damage.

Unlike Post #10, Lou the Welder's 357 where the entire bbl face shows the same type damage s I would expect it to.

I realize that Lou's may have a much higher round count and thus more damage to it.
But I'd still expect the OP's gun to show what damage we do see at the 12oclock position not only there,,but evenly all around the breech face of the bbl.

Could the bbl face be 'off' square with an extra wide gap at the top,,or even the face of the cylinder not be square with the bbl face?

That these revolvers do 'gas cut' is not a question. I only wonder why this one shows the issue at the 12oclock position only.

I agree that the depth of the cutting so far is very much less than the estimate given. The revolver is still safe for use IMO.

I never liked hyper magnum loads either,,in any firearm.
Excess wear and strain to get few extra fps wow factor.
I'm going to say something controversial, that I'm positive you wont believe. I'm going to say something that is going to be hard to understand. I will try.

I believe that the 12 o' clock force cone flame cuts, are due to it's close proximity to the top strap. Itself.

On an N frame like my 627, the force cone has enough meat around the force cone to vent the full blast all the way around the extension tube. All 360°. That's why the wear is shone evenly.
2e2df530a85b18c87e06ce81a0abc261.jpg


This is what the flame blast coming out of the force cone / barrel cylinder gap looks like on my 327 R8.
36865e401de016b165374c6ff5aba162.jpg


Here's a pic of my eroded force cone from my Redhawk. It finally did get worse and I sent that one in to Ruger. They said the barrel and frame were damaged beyond repair and sent me a new one. This force cone would have similar dimensions to the 627 N frame. Notice something? Even wear all the way around.
c97719202eaf1a58c9ddac53963cd86f.jpg


I also broke a gp100 357 magnum. I love it when people say, "Ruger's are tanks!" "You'll never break one!" "They last forever "
BS. Both the Redhawk and kgp-100 were sent in to Ruger. Both were warranty replaced. Out of the two, the Redhawk started shooting badly.
b88167b6bf228d963ac768db9aa329d0.jpg


This picture shows the wear on the top first. And in the end it did get worse. Reaffirming my belief, that if the cone is too close to the top strap , the flame is more concentrated there.
On the K frames, the erosion starts on the bottoms for the same reason.

If you had seen cracks in a different position. It may have had compromised metallurgy. But in my observations, from what we've seen, they've cracked mostly in the same way. I've heard discussions about late timing, early timing issues. Hey, I dont believe this. The cylinder or stop notch either makes it in position or you have really big problems then. But I wouldn't call that late timing or early.

Again. Top strap cutting is mostly minor if at most. Unless were talking 357 maximum. Then, yes , there is an issue. But not relevant here.
 
I was working up two powders trying to push a 125 gr semi jhp to as close to 1450 fps as possible without excess pressure. I live in California where it's a requirement to go through a background check to buy ammo and I am prevented from ordering ammo online. Even if I was willing to submit to the unconstitutional background check to buy ammo, good self defense ammo in 357 mag is nearly impossible to find on the shelves during the interesting times we live in. So I wanted to reproduce the 1450 fps round of years past that had such a good rep for self defense just so I'd have a batch on hand. Like I said I rarely shoot 125 gr ammo out of my 686 with the vast majority of the 3000+ rounds that have gone though it being 158 gr hardcast (although the indoor ranges no longer allow exposed lead ammo so I have been shooting more fully plated ammo recently).

The max loads I tested in pushing the 125 gr bullets were 22.3 gr of Alliant Power Pro 300-MP and 18.3 gr of Vihta Vuori N110. There were some signs of pressure (minor primer flattening) with the 300-MP but the N110 was fine.


Hello, Puritan. Let me welcome you to the forum, since you've been here just a short time.

I've done the same as you have, though I'm not in California. I've loaded 125gr. bullets exclusively(for 15 yrs. or so), and haven't experienced cutting or erosion. I've also used N110 exclusively. The only difference is the charge weight. May I ask the source of your load data? I've noted that Vihtavuori, at least the times I've looked at their data, has listed maximum charge weights for N110 considerably higher than I've seen in other published data. My load has 16.0 gr., 2.3 less than yours, and it is a stout load. My memory is kind of foggy re chronograph results, but it seems to me that it was close to 1400. The max charge listed in the data I used was 16.4.

You may want to try backing off the charge and see what you get, keeping an eye on the cone and strap. As I said, I haven't had an issue. My experience is akin to that of colt_saa, though he has fired more of the 125gr. bullets than I have.

Regards,
Andy
 
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Graphite. I believe you just take a sharpened pencil and write all over the affected area until you get a build-up coating filling up as much of the cut as possible. I have not done this. I just read about it. That sure made an ugly place on the strap and the barrel face............
 
Hello, Puritan. Let me welcome you to the forum, since you've been here just a short time.

May I ask the source of your load data? I've noted that Vihtavuori, at least the times I've looked at their data, has listed maximum charge weights for N110 considerably higher than I've seen in other published data. My load has 16.0 gr., 2.3 less than yours, and it is a stout load. My memory is kind of foggy re chronograph results, but it seems to me that it was close to 1400. The max charge listed in the data I used was 16.4.

Andy

Thanks for the welcome Andy. The Vihta Vuori website lists 18.5 gr of N110 as the max load in their testing using a barrel with a similar twist rate as my 686. The Speer manual lists 17.8 gr for their 125 gr GDHP. Lee's Modern Reloading lists 18.4 gr as max for the 125 gr xtp. Hornady however lists 16.1 gr as max for the same xtp bullet.

The Alliant powder was far more impressive in my opinion. Very snappy at full load, but also very accurate to 50 yards off hand with iron sights. The downside (other than the top strap cutting) was the muzzle flash. Similar to full load H110 muzzle flash. The VV N110 had moderate muzzle flash, but based on recoil it probably wasn't pushing the bullet as fast as the 300-MP.

Although I brought my chronograph to the range I forgot the tripod for it so I wasn't able to clock velocities off the table. I tried, but kept getting errors because I was too close so I ended up just shooting the rounds to gauge pressure and accuracy. I'm hoping to get back in a couple of weeks with my tripod to measured velocities.
 
I believe that the 12 o' clock force cone flame cuts, are due to it's close proximity to the top strap. Itself.

That's a very inciteful analysis. After a closer look it does appear that the erosion on my 686 and your GP-100 is originating from the inside to the outside of the cone whereas the erosion on your Redhawk seems to be from the outside to the inside as I would expect from bullet impact. This makes a lot of sense. I haven't contacted S&W yet, but when I do I'll see if they're willing to look at the photo first.

I still wish there was something I could put over the top strap where the cutting is occurring just to contain it while I finish developing this load.
 
Graphite. I believe you just take a sharpened pencil and write all over the affected area until you get a build-up coating filling up as much of the cut as possible. I have not done this. I just read about it. That sure made an ugly place on the strap and the barrel face............

Thanks. I might try this as a temporary fix while I finish developing the load.
 
We used to see prematurely worn out 38 Super barrels in 1911's when the users insisted on running light for caliber bullets (115 gr in this case) with particularly erosive powder selections. Simple initial fix is to pay more attention to your choice of powder. Next is to go to at least medium weight, if not standard heavy weight bullet for caliber. With this setup you're golden.

BTW I tend to run 158 gr bullets in .357 magnum, certainly in J or K frames.
 
I'm curious if this has any effect. I suggest you take a pencil along and reapply periodically as I don't expect the graphite to adhere much if at all. I look forward to your range report.
Thanks. I might try this as a temporary fix while I finish developing the load.
 
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