Ithaca M37 Riot Shotgun

[schutzen-jager]

my 37

50 + year old DSPS - until this thread i have never seen or heard of any serious problem with the model 37 - standard issue for LAPD + numerous other agencies for decades - U.S. military issue , WWII + thousand sent to [ and left in ] Vietnam - every LEO + military personnel that used them considered the lack of trigger disconnector on Ithaca + Winchesters an asset + not a problem -

 

[schutzen-jager]

I am lucky to own the great-granddaddy of all Ithaca 37's. A 3-digit 37T. One of the first 37's made back in 1937 and one of the few remaining pre-WWII Ithaca 37 trap guns. The recoil pad is new.
Enjoy:

topic was M37 riot guns - only trap + skeet champions i know of used single or double barrel Ithaca's -

 

[THE PILGRIM]

I know a nice Yankee Lad who is a Ithaca College grad.
When I see him wearing his Ithaca Sweatshirt,
I always say, what a Great College!
It's The only college I know that made its own Shotguns!

 

[ContinentalOp]

I know a nice Yankee Lad who is a Ithaca College grad.
When I see him wearing his Ithaca Sweatshirt,
I always say, what a Great College!
It's The only college I know that made its own Shotguns!

Well, those college students do know how to party with their shotguns...

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af9N7UhTMA8[/ame]

 

[biku324]

50 + year old DSPS - until this thread i have never seen or heard of any serious problem with the model 37 - standard issue for LAPD + numerous other agencies for decades - U.S. military issue , WWII + thousand sent to [ and left in ] Vietnam - every LEO + military personnel that used them considered the lack of trigger disconnector on Ithaca + Winchesters an asset + not a problem -

I really don't know about that - you'd have to ask the State Police armorer in the '80s who pulled all of the M37s in, replaced them with other models, and sold them at auction. I did see Frank Valles empty a magazine of buckshot at the range in Grants without touching the trigger. His M37 went 'bang' every time he closed the bolt; the range master tried it, had the same result, and condemned it. I'd heard similar stories from the older officers, but never saw more than one premature discharge per gun, and that only in Gallup. I really hadn't thought of those shotguns since.

 

[texmex]

I believe they're now called the Model 87 and I'm pretty sure the news ones have eliminated the slam-fire issue.

Holding the trigger back and racking the slide as fast as you could was the closest thing we had to a machine gun back in the day. Maybe some of those "slam fire issues" were caused by having their finger on or near the trigger when they shoved the fore end forward. Rack it hard enough and that might even cause your trigger finger to pull the trigger (your finger stays still but the shotgun moves forward). Keeping your finger out of the trigger guard when racking the shotgun might solve a lot of those unintentional discharges. If I remember correctly, the Winchester Model 1897 and Model 12 worked the same way but the Winchester 1200 and High Standard riot gun had a dis-connector so you had to release the trigger and pull it again for rapid fire.

 

[Mainsail]

If we going to talk scattergun music, it is Junior Taylor - "shoot a boy and run now... Do the Jack Benny..."
Jr. Walker & The All-Stars - Shotgun - YouTube

My favorite starring role for the Ithaca 37 is making the "Shotgun Ed" Nickname in LA Confidential.
Plenty of gunplay and faux violence - L. A. Confidential Shotgun Ed scene - YouTube

I think Jr Walker did that exact same song, with slightly different lyrics....

 

[dave1918a2]

Years ago (77-79 I think) a gun club member who was a FFL bought several, 20 or so Ithaca DSPS from the Kansas State Prison as They were up grading to Rem or Win. Sold them all at $175. Still have mine. Used it at Gunsite and Thunder Ranch and never had a problem. I also don't believe there is an upgrade from a DSPS.

 

[schutzen-jager]

I really don't know about that - you'd have to ask the State Police armorer in the '80s who pulled all of the M37s in, replaced them with other models, and sold them at auction. I did see Frank Valles empty a magazine of buckshot at the range in Grants without touching the trigger. His M37 went 'bang' every time he closed the bolt; the range master tried it, had the same result, and condemned it. I'd heard similar stories from the older officers, but never saw more than one premature discharge per gun, and that only in Gallup. I really hadn't thought of those shotguns since.

does not make sense to me - did the state police armorer check to see what actual problem was before auctioning them off ? - broken , stuck firing pin on worn one shotgun cost dept. a lot of money in that instance - they are still in use by LAPD [ since 1940 ] - see quote from LAPD service weapons published resource -

[ In the patrol cars, locked to a steel bar, was an Ithaca Model 37, 12-gauge shotgun, loaded with "00" (double-aught) buckshot, nine pellets to the cartridge with one round in the chamber and four in the magazine tube. The shotgun was made specifically for the Los Angeles Police Department, and was called the "L.A.P.D. Special". The shotgun was based on the Ithaca Model 37 "Deerslayer", which was a weapon designed to hunt large game with rifled slugs. As a consequence of being designed for use with slugs, it had rifle sights, unlike most shotguns.

The "L.A.P.D. Special" had a dull parkerized military finish instead of the more usual high gloss blue finish. The barrel was 18 and a half inches long, as opposed to the twenty inches of the civilian version. The advantages of the Ithaca Model 37 Shotgun over the Winchester, Mossberg and Remington models were that the Ithaca weighed a pound less, and could be used with equal ease by right or left-handed shooters due to the unique bottom ejection port and loading chamber it used. The Ithaca 37 is still in use today as the main shotgun carried by LAPD officers, and has been in use since the 1940s. ]

 

[biku324]

No clue on what the armorer did or didn't do. They just pulled in the Ithacas and replaced them.

 

[Murdock]

My M37 riot gun does not do well with slugs. This was surprising, as the 16 gauge Deerslayer I have from the same era does quite well with them.

When the Deerslayer version came out they were touted by the company as shooting a shot pattern that was "similar to a cylinder bore." Further, the ads of the time stated that the DS guns with their rifle sights would put 5 Foster slugs into a 100-yard group that coud be covered or touched with a spread open hand. The Deerslayer my dad bought could and did in fact do this, when we fired it from a rest at that distance.

Turns out that the Deerslayers have a bore that is tighter that a conventional shotgun, which facilitates the good groups with Foster slugs. So I presume that police guns with the rifle sights probably have the tighter bore for use with either slugs or shot.

I have no problem sticking with buckshot in my gun though. A red dot won't be any quicker than a brass bead.

 

[bushmaster1313]

I made this from a 1956 field grade 12 gauge Model 37 by cutting the barrel to 18.5", adding a bead, shortening the stock, fitting a recoil pad and adding an ivory grip base for good measure. Work was done by different gunsmiths and I did the ivory and finished the wood.

Quick to point and pleasant to shoot with reduced recoil 00 Buck

Gave it to a young man as his first shotgun

 

[jimmyj]

The big issue with A/D with Ithaca Model 37s was poor maintained. Dust, dirt, tobacco ash, etc. in the action disturbing the trigger return spring where the trigger was held back, rack a round (with finger not even close to the trigger) and BANG !

 

[Murdock]

The big issue with A/D with Ithaca Model 37s was poor maintained. Dust, dirt, tobacco ash, etc. in the action disturbing the trigger return spring where the trigger was held back, rack a round (with finger not even close to the trigger) and BANG !

More than one gunsmith has reported that most of the fixes in the shop turned out to be a thorough cleaning rather than repairs.

 

[bushmaster1313]

The big issue with A/D with Ithaca Model 37s was poor maintained. Dust, dirt, tobacco ash, etc. in the action disturbing the trigger return spring where the trigger was held back, rack a round (with finger not even close to the trigger) and BANG !

It is much easier to disassemble and clean the action of a Remington or a Mossberg than an Ithaca.

Also, because the rear of an Ithaca receiver is open to the wood of the stock, there is a tendency for the wood to get soaked through with oil

 

[jimmyj]

In addition to no automatic disconnector, a single action bar instead of a double was thought to be a problem.

 

[schutzen-jager]

not true about single action bars - the Winchester pump guns that are so highly rated + others had single action bars - dual bars made it cheaper for manufacturers to produce allowing them to use thinner stamped parts instead of one heavier stronger part -

 

[2152hq]

The newer 37's have a disconnector in the sense that you must release the trigger after closing the bolt and then pull the trigger again to fire the shotgun. It's usually a separate sear that needs to re-set itself under spring pressure or sometimes the trigger itself that needs to do so while the hammer is held at full cock by the separate sear. I haven't look inside any of the newer Ithacas to see what was done.
The repro/Browning/Winchester M12 and 42 have a similar arrangement so the trigger must be released and then pulled to fire the gun again.

The orig M37 design actually does have a disconnector.
It's that small wedge shaped piece of steel that sticks out of the side of the hammer.

That's what catches the hammer from following thru and chasing the bolt slide and bolt forward after it's cocked.
W/O that, that is exactly what would happen as you shuffle the action back and forward again. The hammer would simply follow through.

That wedge shaped piece catches on the slide release and holds the hammer at full cock,,actually just a bit more than full cock.
We'll call it full cock+.

As the action is closed and then locked completely, the slide latch is allowed to kick up and in position in back of the bolt slide locking the gun shut.
What you see on the outside if you observe the gun closing and locking shut is the slide lock latch moving back down in position next to the trigger guard.

At the moment that slide latch makes that locking movement,,it releases the hammer from that full cocked+ position.

If your finger is OFF of the trigger,,the hammer falls a very short couple of degrees in rotation and onto the sear tip of the trigger. Ready to fire once again with a pull of the trigger.

If you are holding the trigger to the rear,,the hammer drops with nothing in it's path to stop it. It continues on it's full rotation and strikes the back end of the firing pin in the bolt and fires the shotgun.
At this same moment of firing, the hammer kicks the slide latch out of the 'locked' position under the bolt slide.,,and the action can immediaetly be opened again w/o operating the slide latch release.

The entire trigger set up is not unlike some full auto assemblies in that it can continue to fire (FA) as long as the trigger is held back.
Then Semi auto with one pull and release of the trigger.
It just happens to be sitting in a manual pump action firearm instead of a semiauto design.

Winchester M12 uses the same principle as do others.
It's easy to make and avoids the separate resetting sear and it's spring that are the normal parts seen in most semiauto mechanisms.
JMB got around it in the semiauto A5 and Model 8 with his searless trigger design

Everybody seems to like 'SlamFire'!

 

[bushmaster1313]

Everybody seems to like 'SlamFire'!

IIRC, Walt Snyder, who knows a lot about Ithaca's in general and the Model 37s in particular (he literally wrote the book), says to never slam fire a Model 37.

 

[Drm50]

They probably discontinued use because the only practical way to clean a Ithaca 37 requires taking stock off. The fire controls slide out back as well as bolt group when disengaged from slide arm. I've never taken a 87 apart.
I only sold 3 of them, the 37 cult didn't like them. The Rem 870 and Moss 500 aren't near the gun but are much easier to strip to clean.