Malfunctioning S&W .38 Special.

[Michael Harless]

Perhaps his mother had older relatives in the women's suffrage movement of the early 20th century? Interested to find out.

Harless v. Duck

Harless=My mother, whose 38 special I found in her safe after she passed away.

Duck= Chief of the Toledo Police Department.

It was several decades ago, so I may be wrong, but if I recall correctly, the lawsuit was because female recruits were being discriminated against by the Toledo Police Department due to not being able to do a 6' standing broad jump, even though athleticism such as doing a 6' broad jump was not in the job description.

She won. Therefore you see many female police officers all over America to this day. It was a landmark case, for both gun rights and women's rights. (2nd and 19th amendments)

My mother was ordered not to bring her service gun to work.

So she brought her own gun to work, and was promptly arrested for exercising her 2nd amendment right to keep and bear arms.

That's the gun I'm talking about.

 

[Dan Zulu]

HARLESS v. DUCK | 619 F.2d 611 (1980) | f2d61111126 | Leagle.com

Very interesting, thanks.

 

[shocker]

You could watch this video and decide if you want to tackle this DIY.
Disassembly and Care of the S&W Revolver ~ Learn how to from a Factory Trained Armorer! - YouTube

 

[scooter123]

I know I have the right tiny little screwdrivers, somewhere around here. I'd have to find them.

I thinking that I should figure out how to post a picture of it, to better express what I am talking about.

You DO NOT want to use tiny little screwdrivers, all those will do is destroy the slots in the screws. What you MUST use are FITTED PRECISION GUNSMITH SCREWDRIVERS.

Because you will find that these screws are very very tight. It will take just about all of your strength and a chin pressing VERY hard on the butt of the screwdriver to get them to break loose. I also advise that someone other than yourself hold the revolver while you concentrate on keeping the tip well centered and perfectly square while you apply the force needed to break the screw loose.

After all of the screws have been removed you then have to lift the sideplate free of the frame. Another operation that requires the correct technique. Try and pry that sideplate free and what you will have is a Parts Gun, because that sideplate will NEVER EVER fit properly in the frame recess again. The technique for removing the sideplate is to use Vibration. What you do is tap on the grip frame with the plastic handle of a screwdriver. After somewhere around 50 to 100 taps that sideplate will have lifted far enough out to the frame recess you can remove it easily without the application of any significant force. Note, if it wont wiggle easily keep tapping. Now take a good detailed picture of the lockwork of that revolver. Because you will have to figure out how to get each and every part back together exactly like this. Note, the Rebound Spring will be a major point of frustration and it's a compress spring that will shoot into orbit if you don't retain it as you remove the rebound slide.

PS: I'm not going to go any further with guiding you on how to service your revolver. Because my post is only intended to provide you with reasons for going to a gunsmith. Because odds are excellent that you will be taking this revolver to a gunsmith either as an assembled revolver or as a bag of small parts that is missing a few items.

Note, not saying that you can't teach yourself, just saying you don't want to do that with a family heirloom. BTW I am pretty much self taught. In my case I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering, nearly 40 years of design experience in industrial machines, and I started with the Kuhnhausen S&W Repair Manual. In addition I'm a life long tool junkie and have a fairly large collection of gunsmithing screwdriver tips.

 

[Michael Harless]

I'm not even half way through that video that shocker posted and I have already learned more about S&W revolvers in half an hour than I knew in a half a century.

The action is a lot more complicated than necessary and therefore prone to failure. Very delicate.

Thanks for that link.

 

[Michael Harless]

Bring it to a qualified GunSmith. You might get lucky and just have to pay for a deep cleaning.

Do you know any gunsmiths in the Toledo or Detroit area?

How can you tell the difference between a good gunsmith and a not-so-good gunsmith?

 

[Michael Harless]

Note, not saying that you can't teach yourself, just saying you don't want to do that with a family heirloom.

I may learn some gunsmithing, now that my interest has been piqued, but not with that gun.

I would rather practice my technique on a different gun.

 

[BC38]

You DO NOT want to use tiny little screwdrivers, all those will do is destroy the slots in the screws. What you MUST use are FITTED PRECISION GUNSMITH SCREWDRIVERS.

Because you will find that these screws are very very tight. It will take just about all of your strength and a chin pressing VERY hard on the butt of the screwdriver to get them to break loose. I also advise that someone other than yourself hold the revolver while you concentrate on keeping the tip well centered and perfectly square while you apply the force needed to break the screw loose.

After all of the screws have been removed you then have to lift the sideplate free of the frame. Another operation that requires the correct technique. Try and pry that sideplate free and what you will have is a Parts Gun, because that sideplate will NEVER EVER fit properly in the frame recess again. The technique for removing the sideplate is to use Vibration. What you do is tap on the grip frame with the plastic handle of a screwdriver. After somewhere around 50 to 100 taps that sideplate will have lifted far enough out to the frame recess you can remove it easily without the application of any significant force. Note, if it wont wiggle easily keep tapping. Now take a good detailed picture of the lockwork of that revolver. Because you will have to figure out how to get each and every part back together exactly like this. Note, the Rebound Spring will be a major point of frustration and it's a compress spring that will shoot into orbit if you don't retain it as you remove the rebound slide.

PS: I'm not going to go any further with guiding you on how to service your revolver. Because my post is only intended to provide you with reasons for going to a gunsmith. Because odds are excellent that you will be taking this revolver to a gunsmith either as an assembled revolver or as a bag of small parts that is missing a few items.

Note, not saying that you can't teach yourself, just saying you don't want to do that with a family heirloom. BTW I am pretty much self taught. In my case I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering, nearly 40 years of design experience in industrial machines, and I started with the Kuhnhausen S&W Repair Manual. In addition I'm a life long tool junkie and have a fairly large collection of gunsmithing screwdriver tips.

FWIW, I haven't found any guns with the screws any where nearly as tight as what you're describing. If they are that tight or stuck it needs a good soak before trying to loosen them IMO.

I also find it helps a lot when removing the sideplate to lay the gun in your left hand, sideplate down and centered in your palm, THEN whack the grip frame with your right hand holding your plastic screw driver handle. Usually only takes about 5-10 whacks this way because you are allowing gravity to assist with vibrating it off.

Just a couple of tricks that have proven useful to me. YMMV.

 

[Univibe]

Don't squander your money on Gun Scrubber. It's $12 for a medium sized spray can.

Instead, go to the auto parts store and get Non-Chlorinated Brake Cleaner. It's $2.89 for a large spray can.

Wear rubber gloves. Spray that revolver down, inside and out, with brake cleaner. Blow it out with compressed air. Lubricate with light machine oil.

If that doesn't do it, take it to a pro.

 

[steelslaver]

I'm not even half way through that video that shocker posted and I have already learned more about S&W revolvers in half an hour than I knew in a half a century.

The action is a lot more complicated than necessary and therefore prone to failure. Very delicate.

Thanks for that link.

Hardly, I have S&W revolvers that are over 100 years old and still working fine. I have a model 18 that has had 10s of thousands of rounds through it and has had anything but a wipe down and a bore brush, 38, 357s 45s with thousands of rounds


I can take one apart no problem. But, most of the time, just removing the grips and spraying all the opening s with brake cleaner while working the action will get out the goo that causes most of the problems. $10 to a hole in a donut the cause of the problem is old oil turned to goo, Not a mechanical failure, but a lubricant failure
Once you really study it it isn't that complicated and IT WORKS. Everything you need and nothing you don't

 

[Michael Harless]

And you'd better know what you're doing as well.
Many people (most?) don't...

I'm one of those people. That's why I'm here.

 

[steelslaver]

Think about the complicated mechanism the basics of what was designed and put into production before 1900.
The cylinder which needs to turn and lock in place tobring the next charge into battery.. Placed on a tube that cleverly pivots in and out of the frame for quick reloads. Yoke held in place by a screw that also functions to keep the cover on. The mechanism that locks the yoke and cylinder into place in the frame also works as part of the ejection system. 2 long lasting coil springs, 3 counting the one under the barrel that powers the tooth that holds front of rod in place. Having one of these spring fail is unheard off. The ejector mechanism also operates as part of the cylinder rotation mechanism with its small teeth. These do wear. You may have a problem in normal use after 50-100,000 complete rotations of cylinder. Solution is simple replace the hand that engages them with a slightly wider one.

Hammer for primer ignition, rotates on a stud in frame and end of stud is supported by cover plate when in use to have a well supported pivot point. Bossed at base and on plate keep contact area small. Rivet mounted firing pin (hammer nose) allows it to be changed out if it ever breaks (very rare) and gives it slack to help it smoothly align to small hole in recoil shield that prevents the primer from moving into frame and hanging up.This small hole is also a hardened piece that is staked into the frame. The hammer has a notch on the bottom of its "foot" to engage triggers single action sear and another spot to engage the trigger during final movement of trigger in DA. The hammer also has a small spring powered toggle that is picked up by the trigger to start its initial movement in DA with better leverage and its length is adjustable by stoning to make handing it off in later stages. The foot of the hammer also engages the trigger to move it back to position for single action use if you cock the hammer using th spur. The hammer is powered by a simple leaf spring attached by a link that is actually similar to bicycle chain which last forever, even when used like chain saw chain. Delicate? Hardly. Other end of spring hooked into frame by a simple wide rounded end and tension by a screw in the frame. The trigger rotates on another frame stud with bosses and it has the hand rotate off it by a pin, the hand if made to move forward by a simple hair spring that resembles the all time simple cloths pin. The hand rides in a frame slot and engages the teeth in the cylinder to rotate it as trigger is moved. Easy to remove and replace if needed to worn timing in distant future. The front of the trigger also moves the cylinder stop down briefly so the cylinder can be turned as its hand rotates it. The cylinder stop cleverly has a slot where it rides on a stud, this allows it to trip off trigger easily and quickly so it is impossible to rotate the cylinder so fast it can over run the next chamber (5 shots in less than 1/2 second recorded with this mechanism) The stop is powered by a small coil spring in frame. The trigger is returned by a slide with a spring inside of it.A clever part of the slide is a hump on its top such that when the slide is home it is under a spot on the hammer. This will not allow the hammer to pivot forward so the firing pin can contact a primer as long as the trigger is in the home position. So you could carry all chambers loaded. Then just in case the gun is dropped from a height, lands on the hammer and breaks the hammer stud to overcome the hump system and make it fire a simple small arm was added that is moved by a pinon the trigger reset slide and its movement is controlled by a simple slot in cover plate. When trigger is home the end of this is between hammer and frame preventing primer contact IF the hammer stud is broken off.

To me its all pretty simple, EXTREMELY reliable and double safe. It is so well designed one guy fires 5 shots in less than 1/2 second and other guy has fired 6 shots reloaded and fired 6 more shots in less than 3 seconds
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLk1v5bSFPw[/ame]
If you think it is complicated or delicate go take a $2500 Colt Python apart. LMAO


Think about this an expert with a semi automatic 1911 pistol can't fire 5 rounds in 1/2 second and the record to empty a 16 round clip in a 40 cal semi auto XDM is 3.4 seconds, a miserable rate of 2.16 rounds per 1/2 second in comparison to the 5 from an old "overly complicated, delicate, failure prone" S&W 38 revolver designed well over 100 years ago. Interesting huh

 

[kbm6893]

I have ten left thumbs and I have torn down many a S&W revolver. With the right video and the proper screwdrivers, it's not hard at all. This one here is excellent.

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WqmlI3FBvLE[/ame]

And S&W revolvers are not delicate. I wouldn't take the trigger or hammer apart because I never felt the need to. Also don't generally take the cylinder stop out because once everything else is out a good scrubbing with a solvent soaked toothbrush and it's clean as a whistle. I blast everything with non chlorinated brake cleaner after it's scrubbed down with Hoppes, apply a very thin lube to the parts, and reassemble.

 

[Michael Harless]

Is there some kind of commercially available rebuild kit for the double action mechanism?

I was looking on Amozon and didn't find Jack-!@#$

I know, I'm looking for an easy fix.

 

[ladder13]

This is not like building an atomic bomb.
Look at some videos and go slow. No reason to take the whole thing apart for now, especially if you feel uncomfortable.
Try a little cleaner inside the nooks and crannies.

If that doesn't work, and you feel overwhelmed, then take it to a gunsmith.

 

[Michael Harless]

You could watch this video and decide if you want to tackle this DIY.
Disassembly and Care of the S&W Revolver ~ Learn how to from a Factory Trained Armorer! - YouTube

I'm probably not going to DIY.

But the more I research, the more I appreciate the elegance of the S&W double action revolver.

 

[jjfitch]

Don't do it!

I'm probably not going to DIY.

But the more I research, the more I appreciate the elegance of the S&W double action revolver.

I can disassemble and reassemble a 1911 or S&W revolver in about 90 seconds but it requires tenacity and skill beyond most neophytes. But don't take it personally you're good a stuff I wouldn't attempt!

Several times a year I get guns that have been molested by people who should have never touched a firearm beyond loading and firing!

In this case I'd run the thing through my sonic cleaner for 30-60 minutes and flush with kerosene and then lube with light oil. The thing would be function tested for proper safe operation. If returned to S&W this is what they would do!

I would do this before removing the side plate especially an heirloom! Often times even though the side plate is removed using best practices the edges get a little distorted, raised edges!

Find a gunsmith that is willing to follow the above and you will be "golden"! Shouldn't cost over $30-$50!

Smiles,

 

[Catbacker88]

Screwdrivers are dangerous

I know I have the right tiny little screwdrivers, somewhere around here. I'd have to find them.

No, you almost certainly do not. Those advising you to take your revolver to a reputable gunsmith are absolutely correct.

 

[Catbacker88]

Screwdrivers are dangerous!

I know I have the right tiny little screwdrivers, somewhere around here. I'd have to find them.

No, you almost certainly do not. Those advising you to take your revolver to a reputable gunsmith are absolutely correct.

 

[steelslaver]

What you need is a hollow ground screw driver the fits the slot perfectly. Most screw drivers are of the tapered type and they will mess up the edges of the slot