Not worth $100

[llowry61]

The only guns I will letter are those with configurations, that if factory, will increase the price. An example, is a BSS Colt I bought at a polished stainless price, but was said to be factory. So, I sent for the letter and guess what, it was BSS from the factory. That letter will add a grand to the value of the gun. It was a calculated risk. I figured if it was BSS then I am ahead, if it wasn't well gonna have to hang on to that one awhile.

So, verifying factory engraving, unusual barrel lengths, stock composition (factory ivory) etc. is the real value factory letters provide.

Every once in awhile, the shipped to will add to the value, but that is like finding another copy of the Declaration of Independence hidden under a 2.00 picture purchased at a garage sale. It happens, but not very often.

 

[Pisgah]

In a similar occurrence, last December I went in to a casino and lost $100. Bummer.

 

[Model46]

Well said Sir.

 

[Muss Muggins]

I’ve read this complaint I don’t know how many times, and it appears your biggest issue is Roy’s failure to have been present in the production meeting with a notepad when acid etching vs. roll stamping was discussed. I’m not sure that can be resolved . . .

I received my letter from the S&W Historical Foundation today, that I requested on my Model 29 NCHP 50th Anniversary Commemorative. I must say, I'm disappointed in the information included in the letter, most of which had nothing to do with my particular revolver. The first paragraph was a quick history of the first police commemorative, for the Texas Ranger 150th Anniversary. The second paragraph told about other police commemoratives and specified the Ohio State Patrol, and how police commemoratives became popular.

The information on my specific revolver is very basic, and I've learned more about it from the Standard Catalog and general S&W forum members than was included in the letter, some of which is incorrect and/or incomplete. For instance, the letter states the NCHP "logo" which is actually the Trooper's Shield, is, and I quote "stamped" on the side plate, along with the anniversary markings on the barrel. Just to look at the markings, one can tell they are not stamped, but etched, and I have learned they were acid etched at that. I did get a specific number of how many revolvers were purchased for the series, and the shipping date of my revolver. There is no information on the rarity or collector value, which I had hoped there would be at least an estimate based on ANIB condition and unfired. I had also hoped for some statement regarding the process used to etch my revolver and those others in the series, and why that process was chosen over roll stamping, which it seems the majority, if not all other commemoratives used.

I can only hope that this letter, when included with the revolver and presentation case, will increase the value of the package by $100 if it is ever sold.

 

[kbm6893]

I've only lettered two guns my Registered Magnum...and my Dad' s 1946 M&P.

The RM letter will add value .... my Dad's M&P, not so much, it's one of a million M&P; but it's a family heirloom.

Got good information on both.... when and where the gun shipped and configuration when it left the factory.

I’m waiting for the letter on my 1946 M&P. The serial number falls within a batch that was shipped to the NYPD, and since I am a retired member of that department I rolled the dice. I hope I’m not disappointed but nothing is guaranteed in life. I hope it is an NYPD gun. I wonder where it’s been for the last 74 years and how many owners it had. If it is an NYPD gun it will stay with me until my son has it one day.

 

[lkabug]

When I request a letter of authentication, I'm looking to confirm the firearm I have in my hands is the same today as the day it left the factory. I believe that to be the purpose of such a letter. The current cost of the letter is the expense of my desire to have peace of mind. I have no expectations such a letter will make the firearm more valuable then it was before the letter. Should there be a mistake, I have no doubt that Dr. Jinks would gladly correct the error.

 

[WCCPHD]

Wow, I like that one. I see it mentioned in the Standard Catalog, but no details regarding numbers or what year. Do you know any more about them? I ouldn't mind one of those; I have an unmarked M66-1 RB 2-1/2".

I'd like to find one of the M66-2's that have the NC ALE seal, for my nephew, who worked for ALE. They were issued from 1983 to about 1986. There was also an unmarked M66-1 issued to them from '78-'83.

You mean like this?





Or this?




And, you missed one:

 

[WCCPHD]

I'm still proud to own the revolver, it's beautiful and commemorates the Highway Patrol of my home state. I suppose I was expecting to see on the letter the things I've found out on my own, just for corroboration if nothing else, such as this being the first Model 29 to be used as a commemorative, and the only commemorative to have the markings acid-etched (others are either roll stamped or laser engraved).

I did find a discrepancy about the numbers made in the Standard catalog. In several posts on the forum, I heard numbers from 1189 to 1200 made, and the Catalog, 4th edition, on page 235 states "approx. 300 manufactured". My letter states that 1080 were ordered and delivered in July of 1979; I can say definitively that the number is at least 835, as 0835 is the number stamped on the frame of the one I own.

I do have some hopes of learning more about these guns; I've been in contact with the current armorer for the NCHP, who has said he would see what he could learn about the disposition of these guns after they were delivered, which the Historical Foundation doesn't have, and I didn't expect them to.

What makes these commemorative special in my eyes is that the initial purchaser had to be a current Trooper or a retiree, and weren't available to the general public, at least until the original owner sold theirs. Since this series was offered in 1979, I can imagine the ones coming on the market are from families of the original owners or their estates.

They may have been delivered to Davidsons in July of 1979, but they did not get to the NC State Highway Patrol Armory until the end of August or first of September. I know as I was going through ALE Basic School (held in conjunction with the 66th NC SHP Basic School) when they were delivered. As I have posted before, we were required to "guard" them all night for about a week.

When delivered to Davidsons a problem was discovered with many of them and they were returned to S&W for the side plates to be re etched (SHP Badge) and replaced. This might explain the discrepancy in time.

 

[Club Gun Fan]

I think that perhaps some folks misunderstand what a historical letter is all about.

As has been stated, the beginning of most letters is a background on the model that you have asked about. Perhaps when it came into production or why, maybe how many have been produced if no longer in production etc. Then the letter goes into the specifics of your gun, date shipped, where it shipped to and if you are lucky, it will tell you the configuration that the gun left as. As others have said, this lets you know that the gun you are holding (as an example) "shipped with a 6" barrel, had a blue finish. wore gold medallion diamond stocks and had a Patridge front sight."

This is a historical letter based on information found in the S&W records. It is not an appraisal or an estimate of value, that comes from an appraiser not a historian. I think that whether the emblem was etched or stamped or roll stamped or put on with an electric pencil is a little like "you say potayto and I say pototto."

The information in the SC of S&W for the most part was taken from books written by Roy Jinks. Even errors in the original works were transcribed forward. As wonderful as the authors are, Jim and Rick never worked at S&W to my knowledge. Roy Jinks was the company historian for like 40 years and also served as Service Manager among other positions. There is no one on the planet that I know of that has his knowledge or first hand experience or knows more about Smith and Wesson's and their origins. Had Roy Jinks not purchased the factory records when the Wesson family no longer owned the company and was no longer interested in paying the storage fees for those stored records, there wouldn't be a factory history letter today.

Rather than bashing the letter or its author, I would guess that if you had returned the letter with an explanation about etching versus stamping, that Roy would have gladly corrected the letter to your liking. Even with all that Roy knows he cannot possibly remember every detail about every firearm that the factory ever produced and especially those of limited production and perhaps appeal. I have been collecting S&W's for about 50 years and have never heard of this particular gun. It maters to you because you have an affinity to NC and perhaps to the State Police.

Also remember one thing, just having any letter signed by Dr. Roy Jinks (his autograph) regardless of the contents is most likely worth the price that you paid.

James
Well said. It seems no matter what some people aren't happy no matter what. You could give letters away for free, they still would find fault. We can only report what and where. I can't tell you how many times I've had people email, call or write letters back saying our research was wrong because grandpa or dad said he carried this gun with Custer or Utah beach only to tell them the gun shipped for our factory years later. If I can, I'll show you the value of lettering a plain Jane 38 M&P, or as one person said here, one of a million. I bought this at a local gun shop because it was like new and in it's original box. It letters to Frank Wesson, Treasurer, Smith & Wesson.
Don Mundell
Assistant Historian SWHF

 

[4T5GUY]

Obviously you don’t need to request a “Factory Letter” very often.

Sometimes it really pays off just cause it proves that a specific firearm was indeed produced at the factory. Many production numbers are unknown until a factory letter is requested and produced, (9 Recon for instance.) Granted factory numbers are not always precise but that’s what they got to work with. Even Roy, in an email reply to me said that S&W “was not in the business to make collectibles and their record keeping on these guns that we are collecting today are not very accurate.” “ The more modern gun records on items that we think are collectible are just a source of profit for the company.” Unfortunately all true.

One very unusual example that I had lettered was just that. Turned out to be a limited factory run of @ 15. That letter satisfied my curiosity and doubts plus added a bunch more to the value. I got another letter that came with a pistol I acquired and it was amazing. Every back and forth it did from leaving the factory, until the person I got it from was notated. The only other letter I requested proved it did not leave the factory in the configuration it is now. That letter was well received by me even though the news was not great. I appreciate the fact that these records are still around, able to be accessed and then being shared with us.

Jim

 

[austintexas]

I requested information on a M-1955, the seller said he thought it was factory nickel, If true it would be a pretty valuable revolver. He wanted $2000, I inquired if it left the factory nickel and Roy said nope it left blued. Saved me from making an expensive mistake. The gentleman selling the revolver just was mistaken, he said he had research it and there was a possibility. He was not happy with the information but thanked me because he wasn't trying to fool anyone.
SWCA 892

 

[Camster]

In a similar occurrence, last December I went in to a casino and lost $100. Bummer.

Better chance in a casino. There is no reason to think that a letter for a gun produced in recent times, and a commemorative at that, would be accretive to the gun's value or would reveal other than mundane information.
I agree with the thoughts of others about commemoratives and their investment/collectability qualities. Right out of the gate, most have little appeal to those in forty nine other states or those without a sense of history.

 

[diyj98]

I've never paid for a letter and never would unless I was dealing with some five or six figure gun and the value really was dependent upon certain features. I'm not knocking anyone who does, but for my personal use, it wouldn't be worth $100 to know my gun shipped to XYZ Hardward in 19YY.

 

[JSR III]

I'm not knocking anyone who does, but for my personal use, it wouldn't be worth $100 to know my gun shipped to XYZ Hardward in 19YY.

What if your grandfather owned XYZ Hardware in 19YY???

 

[PALADIN85020]

You never know. I lettered this M&P, and it came back as being sent to the chief of police of Richmond, Indiana, shipped Aug. 30, 1939. Two days later from that date, WWII started. This makes this gun one of the very last pre-war guns shipped. Also included was a copy of the factory invoice. From there, folks on the forum came up with some documentation on the first owner. It's luck of the draw on this stuff, but sometimes you strike gold.

John

 

[BlackAgnes]

Am I mistaken, or did the OP say he had received a letter from the Historical Foundation? Wouldn't a factory letter instead from Roy and Don provided the info he was seeking?

Tim

 

[LLOYD17]

Am I mistaken, or did the OP say he had received a letter from the Historical Foundation? Wouldn't a factory letter instead from Roy and Don provided the info he was seeking?

Tim

Factory letters are completed by the SWHF now (still Roy and Don).

Letters to me are a gateway to the service records when I happen upon a gun that has service shop marks. Those service records then usually tell me who owned the gun at that time which leads to more research into that individual. And that leads to a lot of fun and gained knowledge for me which is well worth the cost of the letter.

Also, they’re not $100 if you join the SWCA and the SWHF. And as a member of the SWCA, you can ask for the shipping month and year directly without requesting a letter. And if Roy thinks it’s worth lettering, he’ll usually add that detail. I wouldn’t have lettered my 5” 44 2nd had Roy not mentioned an interesting shipping location in my Month/Year request and that in turn led to learning it was a Toledo PD gun.

 

[diyj98]

What if your grandfather owned XYZ Hardware in 19YY???

You obviously didn't know my grandfather. He may have shoplifted in a few hardware stores, but I can assure you that he never owned one!

 

[sipowicz]

I had a Rossi revolver lettered a few years back for $75. All it said was they thought it was shipped to a guy named Lenny.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

PS: As a further example, there was a gentleman who recently purchased a .22/32 HFT at a pawn shop for $300. It was a plain Jane HFT but he decided to letter the gun. As it turns out the gun was shipped to a gentleman that just happened to be Annie Oakley's husband.

That gun just sold at auction for $47,500.

What was the value of that letter?

A little less than $47,200 if you figure in the postage.