How is that different from a striker fired pistol? Pull the trigger, it goes Bang. Either way.
1911 issue in re "condition" of carry
- Thread starter ISCS Yoda
- Start date
Actually a condition 1 1911 requires 3 things to happen.
1. grip safety depressed.
2. manual safety disengaged
3. trigger press
Most striker fired guns:
1. trigger press
Now, which is going to LOOK safer to a JURY of housewives and hairdressers who know nothing about guns?
I'll give your post an AMEN!
How many people shoot themselves in the *** with a Glock vs 1911 derivatives? That's the true measure of the safety of a firearm. It is all about protecting the stupid from themselves.
The only safety is between your ears. Everything else is a mechanical control that can fail. I never use the safeties on my target pistols. Why would you need to? (except for certain range rules during competition likely)
The only safety is between your ears. Everything else is a mechanical control that can fail. I never use the safeties on my target pistols. Why would you need to? (except for certain range rules during competition likely)
iF YOU ARE FAMILIAR WITH THE MECHANICS OF EACH 1911 IGNITION PARTS IN CONDITION 1 The hammer is cocked ,sear engaged and mechanically blocked by the safety .The hammer can' fall..The grip safety just blocks the TRIGGER ,It does not lock the hammer in any position the sear could move off of the hammer ,the sear could slip and the hammer fall firing the cartridge .This cant happen with the hammer cocked and the safety on . As a personal preference I carry cocked and locked (condition 1)Also for old people it is hard to rack the slide with the hammer downto get a cartridge into the chamber
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
If anyone is getting too old to manipulate their chosen self-defense gun with absolute authority, they should give up that type of gun. You don‘t want to find yourself with a jam in the middle of a pickle to realize your hands are too weak. I hung up my Para-Ordnance 1911 that was my primary carry for many years and simplified back to K/J-frames for exactly that reason. As Clint Eastwood once said, a man‘s got to know his limitations
AJ
US Veteran
If anyone is getting too old to manipulate their chosen self-defense gun with absolute authority, they should give up that type of gun. You don‘t want to find yourself with a jam in the middle of a pickle to realize your hands are too weak. I hung up my Para-Ordnance 1911 that was my primary carry for many years and simplified back to K/J-frames for exactly that reason. As Clint Eastwood once said, a man‘s got to know his limitations
A friend has a gun shop and when I am bored I go and hang out. Lots of older couples come in and the husband will say "I want to see a 9 MM". I give it to them and ask him to rack the slide. When he has trouble or can not rack the slide, I mention a wheelgun......
Late to the party, but a couple of observations. As a Naval Officer in the 70’s I periodically carried a 1911 in the line of duty. Usually some sort of security situation. Always carried in condition 3. This was a personal decision and not a directive. Never had any training on the 1911by the military. Fortunately, I was trained prior to service. In one such security situation the Admiral’s Aide tried to convince me I needed to carry the 1911 empty. No magazine, no ammo. No dice, I replied. Finally got the Admiral involved and explained my concerns. He told the Aide to round me up a “clip” and some “shells”.
The Army manual, pg 25 states that condition 1 is much safer than condition 2. I think most of us agree in this day and age. The 1911 was designed a military arm. Carrying a 1911 for civilian defensive purposes is a whole different ball game. In military use, the need for instantaneous deployment is pretty rare. As a civilian carry piece, the need to draw and fire rapidly is much more likely, and condition 1 is the safest and most reasonable way to carry. I doubt Mr. Browning gave that scenario much consideration.
The Army manual, pg 25 states that condition 1 is much safer than condition 2. I think most of us agree in this day and age. The 1911 was designed a military arm. Carrying a 1911 for civilian defensive purposes is a whole different ball game. In military use, the need for instantaneous deployment is pretty rare. As a civilian carry piece, the need to draw and fire rapidly is much more likely, and condition 1 is the safest and most reasonable way to carry. I doubt Mr. Browning gave that scenario much consideration.
JDBoardman
US Veteran
If you look at some other of Mr. Browning's designs such as the Colt 1903/1908,they are clearly designed to be carried in Condition 1. Even the contemporaneous advertisements talk about the "safety" afforded by the grip safety over just that of the side safety/slide lock.
.357magger
Member
I'd point out that these designs were "POCKET Hammerless" in those ads you mention, designed for, uh...pockets, and civilian use.
The next Model JMB did was the 1907-1910 series, which had no thumb safety at all, until the Army requested one for the final phase of the 1911 trials.
Just a thought, but apples to oranges comparing a civilian inspired arm to one that was almost from the beginning for military service and designed to be holstered.
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Irregardless of who the safeties were added for ( Cavalry, etc.) they would only be needed if there is a round in the chamber. Hammer back, hammer down or halfcock is a different argument but if it’s carried with an empty chamber a safety is not required.
To me then it seems as if was designed to be carried chambered and the safeties were added to do that ‘safely’ depending on how it’s being carried.
Having been in the Army, I can’t imagine that in the beginning when this new type of firearm was being issued that there was not a thorough manual of arms issued with it concerning how it was to be carried and that none have survived.
To me then it seems as if was designed to be carried chambered and the safeties were added to do that ‘safely’ depending on how it’s being carried.
Having been in the Army, I can’t imagine that in the beginning when this new type of firearm was being issued that there was not a thorough manual of arms issued with it concerning how it was to be carried and that none have survived.
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AJ
US Veteran
We taught a several ways to rack the slide on a Condition 3 weapon. These were mainly one handed, some using just the weak hand. Off the toe of your boot was pretty interesting.
Also did one hand weak hand shooting with a 12 ga. pump shotgun. That really was an attention getter.
If nothing else, this thread brought back 45 year old memories of illusions that Thai stick could produce, I heard.
.357magger
Member
The manuals have survived and have been referenced in this thread a couple of times.
Copies are readily available online.
Here's the summary of the original manuals:
Condition 3
(Sorry for selectively editing your post, I only wanted to address the latter portion)
sigp220.45
US Veteran
I think one of the reasons for the safeties on a gun meant to be carried with an empty chamber is the ability to safely reholster after shooting a few rounds - say a cavalryman who engaged some bandits and then needed to dismount. Flip up the safety, reholster, clear it later.
I CCW a 1911 full size and carry in condition 1. In the house it's still condition 1. As for the lawyers having a field day with condition 1, a revolver is fully loaded and no safety is engaged. Merely pull the trigger. Much like condition 1 except for the safety part.
I doubt Mr. Browning did anything un-intentionally.
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Certainly not. On the other hand, unless someone has quotable writings by him, I doubt he wasted any mental energy on the idea that there had to be a “right“ way to carry a gun, or on military doctrine regarding degrees of readiness.
After all, until the arrival of semi-automatic double action thirty years later, there was no other way to deal with the question. It pertained to ALL pistols. I need to check whether there have ever been heated discussions in Germany whether the “right” way to carry the Luger was Condition 1 or 3.
.357magger
Member
Certainly not. On the other hand, unless someone has quotable writings by him, I doubt he wasted any mental energy on the idea that there had to be a “right“ way to carry a gun, or on military doctrine regarding degrees of readiness.
After all, until the arrival of semi-automatic double action thirty years later, there was no other way to deal with the question. It pertained to ALL pistols. I need to check whether there have ever been heated discussions in Germany whether the “right” way to carry the Luger was Condition 1 or 3.
Haven't perused the original German manuals (and I don't read or speak German) so I can't help you there.
But IIRC, there were more than a few WW1 and 2 GIs that wounded themselves after being confused by the "backwards " safety lever on the P08 and stuffing one in their belt while in Condition 1.
Ouch. Definitely gonna leave a mark.
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Herky Bird
Member
I’m surprised nobody has cited the original primary source i.e., Ordnance Dept. manual No. 1866, page 13. The implied primary carry method is, magazine full and empty-chamber. The emergency carry is cock-and-locked with a full magazine.
Side-note, the manual also issues the “modern” use of trigger-discipline when using the firearm.
Description of the automatic pistol, caliber .45, model of 1911; with rules for management, memoranda of trajectory, and description of ammunition ... April 1, 1912 : United States. Ordanace dept : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Side-note, the manual also issues the “modern” use of trigger-discipline when using the firearm.
Description of the automatic pistol, caliber .45, model of 1911; with rules for management, memoranda of trajectory, and description of ammunition ... April 1, 1912 : United States. Ordanace dept : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
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