1911 issue in re "condition" of carry

[ISCS Yoda]

That is the main reason why Condition 1 is safer.

But, not to be too terribly annoying, doesn't that make carrying in the safest possible way, to wit, Condition 3, the best choice until and unless a threat appears?

I guess it's a YMMV and personal choice, etc., but when the argument for safety rears it's pointy little head I think Condition 3 wins.

 

[sigp220.45]

Just one thought which I didn‘t notice in the thread yet, but which I find pertinent:

The danger of Condition 2 (a 1911 with the hammer manually lowered onto a loaded chamber and then manually cocked) is NOT, in my understanding and more importantly practical experience, at all related to dropping the gun.

It is related to the hammer slipping off the thumb, possibly resulting in an unintentional discharge. I‘ve done it, I know other 1911 carriers who‘ve done it with more serious results, and if you don‘t think it can happen to you, that would be hubris.

That is the main reason why Condition 1 is safer.

Exactly.

I took part in an investigation of an accidental discharge at a range we used to qualify agents. A new undercover agent was being qualified on his UC gun - a Colt 1911. He corked one off into the tarmac trying to lower the hammer on a loaded chamber. The instructor who was allegedly instructing him was a long-time revolver guy and thought that was how you carried it. I asked him; Why would you ever do that? Just flip up the safety. He just shrugged. To him, the hammer was supposed to be down.

It sucked for the UCA. Any AD, even on the range, was three days on the bricks.

 

[ProCarryNAustin]

I would contend condition 3 is slower even using two hands. Slower to me is more dangerous. If I need it, timer is running.

 

[crazyphil]

It is my understanding that condition 3 was used primarily by the military
for those who were not considered sufficiently trained. I agree with
Absolom about condition 2. That leaves condition 1, and that is how I
choose to carry my 1911 Colt. Cocked and Locked.

I do like the additional safety of the retention strap between the hammer
and the firing pin, like the samples shown below.

On the left Bucheimer Concealer
2nd Safariland "Top Gun"
3rd DeSantis HRT

But I am brave enough and confident enough that I even carry
in condition 1 with no retention strap, like these two beauties:

4th Red Nichol's Brill-Persons
5th Heiser Model 728

 

[mexicanjoe]

Condition 1

I believe if you train with the 1911 your skills will always improve , with time.. That being said: if I were to write policy for an agency it would be this: an officer would have to carry and qualify with a issued sidearm and demonstrate safe skills for at least 2 years before he would be allowed to carry a 1911. I consider the 1911 to be an expert or highly qualified shooters sidearm.
As an aside, remember: many officers carry a Glock with no thumb safety, and one in the pipe. condition 1?????

 

[CQB27]

It is my understanding that condition 3 was used primarily by the military
for those who were not considered sufficiently trained. I agree with
Absolom about condition 2. That leaves condition 1, and that is how I
choose to carry my 1911 Colt. Cocked and Locked.

I do like the additional safety of the retention strap between the hammer
and the firing pin, like the samples shown below.

On the left Bucheimer Concealer
2nd Safariland "Top Gun"
3rd DeSantis HRT

But I am brave enough and confident enough that I even carry
in condition 1 with no retention strap, like these two beauties:

4th Red Nichol's Brill-Persons
5th Heiser Model 729

I drooled a little........beautiful rigs, like always!

 

[ISCS Yoda]

I would contend condition 3 is slower even using two hands. Slower to me is more dangerous.

Apples and oranges. If you're talking personal safety in the heat of a nasty moment versus just daily gun toting you're probably correct.But I was specifically discussing gun carrying, not speed of getting into action.

Which explains why I carry revolvers, TDA pistols, and even a striker fired Walther 9mm. They won't go off if dropped and IMHO they're faster than any 1911, even in Condition 1 - point and shoot wins every time. They're all Condition 1 if you think about it. See mexicanjoe's comment above in re Glocks.

If you like 1911s and like training with them to be proficient in Condition 1 carry, more power to you. I was just searching for the original intent of the inventor and I think I found it. God bless the late Col Jeff Cooper for reinventing the technique.

 

[AJ]

If you like 1911s and like training with them to be proficient in Condition 1 carry, more power to you. I was just searching for the original intent of the inventor and I think I found it. God bless the late Col Jeff Cooper for reinventing the technique.

I do like 1911's and trained to carry them Condition 1. I taught it to others while in the Corps. I was the original Cadre at NS Long Beach and taught the Auxiliary Security Force.

Now I carry a revolver most of the time.

 

[Gyrene6891]

This is like flogging a dead horse. He said, she said. Different approaches to doing different things change over time. When I joined the Corps, we never carried a magazine in any gun until we were ready to shoot(Condition 4). In the mid 1980's the commandant decreed that individuals on guard duty would carry their weapon with a full magazine in the gun (Condition 3). When I was assigned to the Marine Security Force Battalion we were trained to carry Condition 1 and did so. Now that was a bit over 30 years ago, so how do they carry now?

I also remember the magazine only had 5 rounds in it. The story was anymore than that would destroy the spring.

 

[ProCarryNAustin]

Apples and oranges. If you're talking personal safety in the heat of a nasty moment versus just daily gun toting you're probably correct.But I was specifically discussing gun carrying, not speed of getting into action.

Which explains why I carry revolvers, TDA pistols, and even a striker fired Walther 9mm. They won't go off if dropped and IMHO they're faster than any 1911, even in Condition 1 - point and shoot wins every time. They're all Condition 1 if you think about it. See mexicanjoe's comment above in re Glocks.

If you like 1911s and like training with them to be proficient in Condition 1 carry, more power to you. I was just searching for the original intent of the inventor and I think I found it. God bless the late Col Jeff Cooper for reinventing the technique.

If you look at the mechanism, it is pretty obvious. Are you saying the design was not intentional?
It is a defensive tool I carry to deal with the nasty moments. Why are you carrying yours?

 

[PALADIN85020]

John,

While rare is can and does happen. That is the reason there was a change in the Victory Model during WW II. A sailor dropped his and it shot him IIRC.

AJ

With all due respect, you are talking apples and oranges here. With the original Victories, the hammer block was a small flat spring wedged in the sideplate. With congealed lubricant or rust, it could not project as envisioned, allowing the hanmer to go forward if struck. S&W changed the hammer block to a sliding component, the same system used today.

I have never heard of an M1911 going off because of falling on its hammer. Even if it's cocked and the hammer slips off the sear, the sear will catch in the "half cock" notch and the hammer will never connect with the firing pin. John Browning knew what he was doing.

John

 

[PALADIN85020]

I also remember the magazine only had 5 rounds in it. The story was anymore than that would destroy the spring.

Sorry, but that story is pretty much bravo sierra. There are many accounts of WWI M1911s with magazines fully loaded during or shortly after that war being fired normally even in the late 1990s.

Spring setting can happen, but it's usually the result of repeated loading and unloading, not being left fully loaded for a long time.

John

 

[steelslaver]

i did 2 1 month rotations as the corporal or the guard on the main area of Camp Pentledon, fall of 71 and late spring of 72, both times with a 1911, in condition, 2 magazines 1 in the gun and a spare. I don't know that of anyone in the USMC carrying a 1911 in condition 1 during that time period

 

[ISCS Yoda]

If you look at the mechanism, it is pretty obvious. Are you saying the design was not intentional?

To put the sentence the other way, that's exactly what I am saying - the 1911 was NOT designed by JMB to be carried in Condition 1, there is NO evidence of that whatsoever, and it is Army requested re-designs that enable the pistol to be effectively carried in Condition 1. If you look at the comments above, if you go to the Army Field Manual, it becomes clear. The underlying issue here was JMB's intent, a search for proof that he intended the 1911 to be carried in Condition 1. None exists.

All of the rest above is delightful commentary and discussion, and interesting anecdotal military history.

It is a defensive tool I carry to deal with the nasty moments. Why are you carrying yours?

Same reason as yours except I don't carry a 1911, I carry defensive tools that I like better. But that was never the point of this discussion.

 

[WR Moore]

It's a different dead horse, but if one looks at page 20 of that linked field manual, the use of the slide stop to release the slide to load the pistol is the method indicated

 

[AJ]

If you look at the mechanism, it is pretty obvious. Are you saying the design was not intentional?
It is a defensive tool I carry to deal with the nasty moments. Why are you carrying yours?

Same reason as yours except I don't carry a 1911, I carry defensive tools that I like better. But that was never the point of this discussion.

Gentlemen, some of us were trained to use the M1911A1 as an offensive weapon.

 

[ProCarryNAustin]

“The underlying issue here was JMB's intent, a search for proof that he intended the 1911 to be carried in Condition 1. None exists.”

Do you have a quote from JMB for condition 2.
Great engineering. The quote is in the design. If you were an engineer you would be able to read it like a quote.

My own fault for not seeing the bridge.

 

[Darkenfast]

Sorry, but that story is pretty much bravo sierra. There are many accounts of WWI M1911s with magazines fully loaded during or shortly after that war being fired normally even in the late 1990s.

Spring setting can happen, but it's usually the result of repeated loading and unloading, not being left fully loaded for a long time.

John

The mechanics of it may be BS, but the fact of some in the military only being allowed five rounds in two magazines is not, at least in the Navy. During the 80s I saw shipmates on more than one vessel only issued ten rounds total (in two magazines), and no magazine was allowed in the weapon.

Although guns were always an interest of mine, in 20 years in the Navy, the only time I was given any firearms training was in 92, at a small base in northeast Scotland. By then, things had changed. We had good instructors (Marine cadre, fresh from the first Gulf War), 1911s and M-14s. Full seven rounds in the mags, mag in the gun. We still had to carry Condition Three on duty, but we also trained on Condition One. When drawing from a flap holster, racking the slide doesn't add that much time to first shot. We also practised one-hand racks (with live ammunition), and nobody got hurt. We usually shot Weaver, but also one-handed sometimes.

Totally off-topic: The Ministry of Defence Police we sometimes worked with were among the few to actually be armed routinely. They carried Browning High Powers in Condition Three.

 

[AJ]

Although guns were always an interest of mine, in 20 years in the Navy, the only time I was given any firearms training was in 92, at a small base in northeast Scotland. By then, things had changed. We had good instructors (Marine cadre, fresh from the first Gulf War), 1911s and M-14s. Full seven rounds in the mags, mag in the gun. We still had to carry Condition Three on duty, but we also trained on Condition One. When drawing from a flap holster, racking the slide doesn't add that much time to first shot. We also practised one-hand racks (with live ammunition), and nobody got hurt. We usually shot Weaver, but also one-handed sometimes.

I taught the course that you are referring to. I was the original Cadre at NS Long Beach. Basically, we were teaching the course at Gunsite, Automatic Pistol, Revolver and Shotgun. Was interesting for all involved, both student and teacher.............

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

I think that a lawyer would have a field day in court if you ever used a pistol in a defensive situation and it came out that you were walking around in public with a cocked pistol.

Won't fly.........ALL striker fired pistols are "cocked" or "semi cocked" all the time.