Stubborn Crane wont budge

J

jsgunn52

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Two Old warriors from my Grand Dads collection, part of a fire damaged collection of over thirty rare SW's that I'm privileged to get to restore. Yes I know well the sin of refinishing a collectable b were past that point, caked in rust, soot, melted plastic and gutta percha{sp?). The 1917 below is back to white and good to go but the Hand Ejector 44's Crane will not swing out no matter what. Either cemented together via the heat/residue or possibly broken center pin, not sure but it's not budging. If I knew I could find a replacement Ejector Rod with correct cap(not the mushroom, more like the Triple Lock ) I would consider Dremmeling out a section but would hate that approach. Looking for suggestions on correct approach, hate to see it end up as a restaurant wall mount.Hope photo attached!
 

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Muley Gil said:
Have you tried tapping on the back of the cylinder pin? Push it forward and then tap on the cylinder. That ejector rod was used from the late '20s into the '40s.
Click to expand...

^This

Push the pin forward with the correct size punch then apply pressure to/tap the cylinder.

You may need someone to help you or properly mount it carefully in a vise using either soft jaws or a leather belt.
 
Heat would have to be in the 800f range to effect the type of heat treat used on a frame of cylinder. Good rule is it the springs are still spring it is still good. Knife blades temper in the 400-450f range, but there your looking to stay hard and wear resistant vs tensile strength.

I suspect center pin is stuck or the lug under the barrel is stuck. Has it had a long bath in thinned out auto tyranny fluid?
 
Be very careful when dealing with guns that have gone through a fire .
I have no concrete advice on how to tell hot from too hot / safe and unsafe but before I would shoot a gun where the gutta percha grips were "melted " off I would have to get someone with more knowledge with metals and heat treating to look at and test the hardness of the steel .
Just be careful and think about it .
Gary
 
The hardness of the steel is only part of the picture. In fact I have used a hardness tester on s few S&W frames and they are the same hardness as mild steel. Had to measure them in the Rockwell B scale as was to soft for A scale. A cylinder is around 35 HRC. A good knife blade need to be around 58 HRC or higher. A 5160 piece of steel treated to be a knife needs heated to 1500f quenched then tempered at 400f, if you temper it to around 800f it will become a spring and be around 44HRC. Take it to back up to 1500f and let it slow cool and it will become dead soft again.

Point is is once it was normalized, then heated to critical and quenched it is in the temper. For most steels the higher the temper temperature the softer the steel but the farther out the elastic failure point. (when it will take a permanent bend or break). Point being a spring will stay a spring until over 800 f and a cylinder made of 4140 at lest the same. Heck go check a rifle action, and bolt/ They are not hard either. About the mid 35-38 HRC

Here is an interesting little steel deal. What do a watch spring, a piece of quality steel cable and a good file all have in common. They are often made of the exact same steel. 1095. It is all in the heat treatment.
 
I would try spraying Breakfree, Kroil or Liquid Wrench, etc., on front lock, down the extractor rod into the yoke and cyl, down the center pin from the rear with muzzle pointing down, and douse the front and rear of cyl wherever it contacts the frame cyl window.

Then try turning the cyl and extractor rod. Pushing in on the rear of the center pin (it only goes in about 1/8") and holding it in while pushing the cyl to the left out of the frame may work at this point.

If the rod spins independent of the cyl it's loose and must be tightened with fingers. Because if loose, it's too long to be released from the front lock.

You want to try and get parts moving before using too much force.
 
Did you try to open the action before you took out all the parts? I guess my question is there is the thumb release parts? Without them, the cylinder is locked by the pin that extends from the frame at the rear to the lug at the front. The thumb-latch and internal parts are required to move the pin forward beyond the locked position, allowing the cylinder to open.

If it did not move when all the parts were still installed, you could take a small pin punch and from the rear, tap the center pin forward, allowing the cylinder to swing open. From what I can tell, the front pin in the barrel lug is in the locked position.
 
Here is a reoriented and enlarged photo that shows (I think) more anomalies. The hammer stud appears to be too far to the rear of the frame compared to the slot for the thumb release, and I am not sure that there is a spring retention stud for the trigger return mechanism we would expect in a righteous hand ejector of this era. There is a light spot that might be such a stud, but it is closer to the left side cheek piece cutout than seems normal for S&W.


dcwilson-albums-miscellaneous-picture22932-burned-guns-adj.jpg



If the OP could post photos of the interior pieces that he removed from what appears to be a .44 HE 2nd model with (based on the ejector rod) something that might date to the 1930s, that might help us get a fix on what's happening here. The more I stare at it, the more it get a kind of Hermanos Orbea feel from the gun. Actually, the ejector rod knob doesn't even have a profile that really resembles something that ever came out of Springfield.

Dunno. It's hard to say. The hard steel/soft steel stuff has been well covered by people who are better informed on metallurgy than I am.
 
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DCWilson said:
Here is a reoriented and enlarged photo that shows (I think) more anomalies. The hammer stud appears to be too far to the rear of the frame compared to the slot for the thumb release, and I am not sure that there is a spring retention stud for the trigger return mechanism we would expect in a righteous hand ejector of this era. There is a light spot that might be such a stud, but it is closer to the left side cheek piece cutout than seems normal for S&W.


dcwilson-albums-miscellaneous-picture22932-burned-guns-adj.jpg
Click to expand...
I think we might be looking at a real S&W 44-2nd that has some type of short action/coil spring conversion that we have not seen before. Very interesting. I do see a rebound stud.
That 1917 does not look like it is worth restoring to me. Dinged and pitted.
 
"I think we might be looking at a real S&W 44-2nd that has some type of short action/coil spring conversion that we have not seen before. Very interesting. I do see a rebound stud.
That 1917 does not look like it is worth restoring to me. Dinged and pitted."

Lee, the area where the mainspring foot would sit doesn't look right nor do I see any evidence of a strain screw.

If the 1917 bore is decent and the interior of the cylinder as well, it could be a shooter. I agree, not worth restoration.
 
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Muley Gil said:
Lee, the area where the mainspring foot would sit doesn't look right nor do I see any evidence of a strain screw.
Click to expand...
Agreed. It may also be modified, perhaps because the converter tried an earlier version of his conversion and plugged the strain screw hole. Everything else, including the swivel pin hole just looks SO right.
I'm curious- why don't you ever use the "Quote" button when quoting others?
 
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