Range trip today and absolutely no blow back. So at least I feel safe shooting it. When it was hitting my neck and arm, I was a little leery I was a few shots away from a real injury. Seems more accurate after they repaired it. The trigger pulls I learned I can live with after actually firing it. Hopefully, over time they will all evenly smooth out. Thanks everyone for the responses.
Factory repair - now heavy trigger pull
- Thread starter Wfevans4
- Start date
Your problem may be more complicated than you think. I have read where Smith has changed the innards of their guns to be "California compliant" which means if you drop the gun with the hammer cocked back in single action mode it will not go off. If this was the case with your gun a simple spring change may not do much to lighten the trigger and would do nothing to smooth it out either. If you can find a gunsmith to work on the trigger and change it the warranty will be void and you could end up in court if you dropped it and it went off because of a non-factory trigger job that modified it from its safe factory configuration. A smart lawyer would bankrupt you without even pausing to burp or fart.
If you can live with the single action pull I would do nothing to it and as far as the double action pull I would never use this in a real gunfight because you stand much more of a chance of missing and killing an innocent bystander if a precision shot is mandatory but on the other hand if the fight is like most fights you will be so close (arms length) even if the double action pull was way over 13lbs you probably would not miss anyway.
I personally have gotten so used to using a single action pull that when using a revolver or an auto I just thumb cock on the draw and the pistol is cocked before it even comes up to eye level. I find double action shooting completely useless and unnecessary for me personally and would not trust myself to use it in a panic situation either unless the fight was only at arms length or across the barroom table.
If both hands are free you can get a death grip on the handgun and cock it with the non-shooting hand as it comes up to eye level and if you are only able to use just one hand because of an injury thumbcocking on the draw is not as complex as one might think if you practice just a short time doing it and of course without any live ammo in the gun.
Your cheapest way out would just be to try and adjust the mainspring and be satisfied with the small decrease in trigger poundage. This way you did not alter the factory trigger pull and no lawyer could attack you for having a non-standard and dangerous altered trigger that could end up injuring or killing not only a bystander but you yourself as well.
Always remember to live in the "real world" not the fantasy world of the internet.
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Rust E. Badge
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Smith and Wesson Performance Center has done several revolver action jobs for with very nice results. Cost is reasonable. See their website.
Your point and caution is well taken.
However, I think you over estimate the lawyer world and the risk involved. Winning the lottery is not something rational to spend time thinking about, it is so rare. Wrongful or negligent shootings are about that rare.
A lawyer involved in a shooting event is either a criminal case or some negligent shooting event. We do need to worry about prosecutors in the anti-gun states and cities, that is a real risk. Self defense is discouraged, especially with a gun.
The trigger pull issue is a very long way down the list of reasons to find "proximate cause" or solid reason to claim someone was injured because of that issue.
The only way that might occur is with the "too light" trigger pull. We hear that often with the Glocks and the 3.5 pound trigger instead of the 5.5 factory trigger. But in reality, it only comes up when the shooter claims the gun accidentally fired, or fired before they wanted it too because of the "hair trigger".
I have a 12 ounce trigger on a Peacemaker, I love it. I also know competitors that have 1 pound and 1.5 pound triggers on Glocks used in competition, they are wonderful. But we recommend against these very light ones because they "go off" too easy when moving around or maybe being emotionally out of control in a confrontation. Those guns used in a negligent or unintentional shooting would give the lawyer that opening to go after the big bucks you mentioned. But anything factory level is simply not likely. They have to go after you, as the shooter, not the gun.
You can make a case that any gun with a Wolff Spring kit in it is inherently dangerous, I grant you that. However. I am not aware of any case ever where that trigger weight was the cause of some big jury verdict. There are just too many other factors to get past.
Think about it. There has to be someone shot, that should not have been shot, which means the shooter was pointing a gun at or toward the victim. If there was a lawful reason to do that, then the case turns on whether the shooter was logical and reasonable or maybe there was an over penetration issue. An time you point a gun and launch a bullet you own it for a very long time. That makes a very good case for things like frangible ammo or perhaps the 410 pistols for defense, shuts down the threat, but not things a half block away.
So, from the lawyer standpoint, I came from 4 different law enforcement and military backgrounds using guns every day, then law school put me in the courtroom, unarmed, most of the time, I did carry armed as a prosecutor when under threat. From that perspective and spending my last 25 years or so of my work life, in courtrooms every day, I just have not seen any wrongful discharge cases. They are more common among cops, shooting too much and bullets going astray.
Plaintiff's lawyers are the group of lawyers given that name because they chase ambulances and work all of the personal injury cases. Usually trying to form class action cases against some product. The reason is only one case can make you a millionaire, sometimes many times over. In the plaintiff's lawyer groups, they are organizations and they publish the latest methods of "get rich quick" methods of creating these cases. Notice I said creating. They twist the facts a bit when they get before the jury. These organization publish these methods and trends. There is nothing out there in the lawyer world promoting light triggers as a method to launch some new cases and get rich quick. There is just not enough of those cases, to promote an interest.
My point is, I do not worry about a light trigger or even a Wolff Spring kit in a gun. No question, if you shoot someone accidentally and have a spring kit in your gun, that would be an issue. But it is so rare, I say just forget about the lawyers, so long as you can safely operate your gun.
Not to worry. And by the way, from my cop days in the 70s, I too cock my wheel guns on the draw. I have done so when bad guys had guns and the cocked model 65 in the face is what prevented someone from dying that night. It is the same as drawing my cowboy guns, gives me a precision shot the first round. Now carrying other guns it is not so common, but as you said, it works. And in self defense cases you normally only have one hand on the gun, accuracy is much better with the cocked gun that a double action pull of any type. I also think that is why people carry stricker fired guns, much easier to shoot with one hand.
FWIW
Anytime any firearm is repaired at S/W they will always return the firearm to factory specs. It is a liability issue to keep the corporate lawyers happy.
As a competition shooter my 686 was sent back due to a loose barrel after many thousands of rounds. I had turned the strain screw out 1 and 1/2 turns to lighten the double action trigger pull. When it was returned the screw was not only tight but thread locker tight. Was I ticked off, yes. Was it there problem, no. Was it my problem, yes!
As a competition shooter my 686 was sent back due to a loose barrel after many thousands of rounds. I had turned the strain screw out 1 and 1/2 turns to lighten the double action trigger pull. When it was returned the screw was not only tight but thread locker tight. Was I ticked off, yes. Was it there problem, no. Was it my problem, yes!
Yendor357
Member
On the new revolvers, Not only can they not go off,
Now, the hammer can't fall. That's why the flag apparatus is still in the No-Lock Smiths. Inertia, upon impact causes the flag to move, preventing the hammer from falling.
Colt's solution is the hooked hammer and trigger notches. Anyone who buys a new Colt, then tells you it has a crisp trigger pull has no idea.
W4…. Glad to hear it! You even shoot it better now! What a bargain! I re-read some of my own posts sometimes, and I come across more abrasive than I intend. Seriously, glad to hear it worked out.
Now, the hammer can't fall. That's why the flag apparatus is still in the No-Lock Smiths. Inertia, upon impact causes the flag to move, preventing the hammer from falling.
Colt's solution is the hooked hammer and trigger notches. Anyone who buys a new Colt, then tells you it has a crisp trigger pull has no idea.
W4…. Glad to hear it! You even shoot it better now! What a bargain! I re-read some of my own posts sometimes, and I come across more abrasive than I intend. Seriously, glad to hear it worked out.
There is a weight range for acceptability for revolvers and customer service repair techs are required to put that revolver within those specs anytime a gun comes in for service. When I worked for S&W I was also still shooting LE PPC matches and I convinced the factory to send a Tech to one of the regional matches like they did in the old days. Instead of sending a Performance Center guy they sent an experienced "fitter" to the match. While at the match these guys would traditionally do repairs for the competitors, like replacing hammer noses, timing etc. I knew probably 75% of the competitors and many came to me and thanked me for bringing back "the old days" when S&W did this on a regular basis. After the first couple of relays a couple of them came to me and told me that the tech had fixed their match revolvers but the trigger pulls were so heavy they could hardly shoot them. I went to the table where he was set up and happened to look in the trash can and it was full of old strain screws and rebound springs. I ask the tech what was going on and he said, "do you know that all of these guns have cut, modified springs and most are well below the minimum hammer lift weights? I've had to put them all back to factory specs and I'm running out of springs". I had to explain that most of these guys paid a lot of money to have those springs cut and that from that point on, all he was to do is repair the stated complaint. That's the diff between a gunsmith and a "fitter". He was doing what he was trained to do so when you send your gun to the factory, it's going to come back like a "new" gun.
bigggbbruce
Member
Since the screw is to be fully tightened. They simply corrected a problem. File a few thousands off the screw until you get the results you want.I had turned the strain screw out 1 and 1/2 turns to lighten the double action trigger pull. When it was returned the screw was not only tight but thread locker tight. Was I ticked off, yes. Was it there problem, no. Was it my problem, yes!
I have been shooting since the early, early 1970s. I've shot thousands of rds in USPSA, 3 Gun & Steel Plate matches. Not as many in skeet/trap, but some. Shot Expert in the Marines 5 years running, missed the first year by one point. I have a nice sized gun collection, all are shooters with only 4-5 being virgins. The size of my collection is no one's business, but there's not many folks I've met that have more or better.
While I do have an excellent screwdriver set, I own neither a trigger pull gauge nor a chrono. Nor do I have a need for one. I don't reload, so why would I need the expense of a chrono, something I probably would never use?
After decades of experience, I can tell a gun's trigger pull pretty darn close. My Anschutz rifle is in the 4-5 oz range, so I know what a light trigger feels like. I also have a Smith Model 52 & 41, two Hammerli .22's & other target-level pistols with excellent triggers. It doesn't take a mechanical device for someone to know their trigger isn't right. I'm certainly not a doctor, but I know when I don't feel healthy.
You skipped my "real world" point. There have been lawsuits against firearms manufacture's when someone dropped a gun and it went off and shot a bystander. I am trying to remember back aways but a woman was standing in line at the grocery store and when she pulled out her wallet it snagged either a Jennings or Sterling pistol that dropped to the floor and shot another person. Now if the Jennings or Sterling would have been a "safely" designed pistol but she had modified the trigger pull the result would not have been a big lawsuit against the manufacture for an improperly designed pistol but against the woman for altering the firearm. In this case the lawsuit was against the manufacturer and rightly so.
The same scenario applies to altering any handgun from its original factory pull. The newer Colt and Smith trigger redesigns were done for a good reason and altering them opens you up for a big lawsuit if the weapon is dropped or even jarred and it goes off.
In my life I have seen more than one weapon, rifles included, go off because of altered triggers and even factory triggers adjusted to light. It is not uncommon at all.
Alton
Member
All of my S & W's have factory springs. 4lbs SA and up to 11lbs DA. But my 617 came with a almost 7 lb SA and 11.5 DA trigger. One day surfing the web I saw JM's youtube video so I sent him $25. Fairly easy other than watch that spring it will jump. Adjusted the main spring to 7lbs DA and SA was around 4.5. Out of 10 rounds rounds 2 misfires. Went back and set it again 4.4 SA and 9 lbs DA. Shoots wonderful.
Point well taken. When I was a young cop, back before they invented electricity, I carried a Jennings 22 as a back up, and I have had that one go off simply when chambering a round. I had a Colt 25 go off when dropped, pretty scary.
An that is why I support drop tests, they are not perfect, but they would weed out the little Jennings and similar. I still used the Jennings, it became my canoe gun, I just did not carry a round int the camber. Mine was very accurate, and better than nothing.
As to changing springs and legal liability. 100% of the time when you modify a gun, like lowering the spring weight, you give a plaintiff's attorney an opening. If the gun fires an the claim is you did not intend to fire you are toast. Because you intentionally and willfully modified the gun from the design specs. Making it more likely to go off early.
If it is a criminal case you can refuse to testify, if it is a civil case where you are sued you cannot refuse to testify and you cannot survive cross examination on those cases.
If you say the gun was too hard for you to accurately pull the trigger because the factory pull was too heavy, you just told the jury that you do not have the hand strength to shoot a handgun like a normal person. So, you paid money and bought lighter springs so it would fire more easily, correct?
Mas Ayoob has written on this about going from the factory Glock 5.5 pound trigger to a 3.5 pound trigger, a dumb idea he says legally. I just agree, although I did that trigger reduction on some of mine. Just because some of us are lawyers, does not make us,,,,smart, we all want lighter pulls.
To be clear, if the gun is a competition gun and not carry gun, that is not an issue, until you shoot someone. I have fired Glocks with 1 pound and 1.5 pound triggers, I love them, but not for a carry gun, we all know that. Smooth a trigger all you want, but if you lower the pull weight an shoot someone, you lose the ability to claim the gun went off, you did that. As I indicated in post 25 above.
So, don't drop guns, and don't modify guns, and maybe our risk will be lower? Yea, I think so.
I've been shooting for many years, as I'm now 80 years old. I have never owned a trigger pull gauge, although there were times that I wish I did. However I am sensitive to trigger pull, is it crisp, does it have creep, is it really heavy or really light? I can feel those things. A couple of my handguns have light trigger pull with quite a bit of smooth creep. My Kimber 1911 Stainless Target II I'm going to guess is around 3-4 pounds but it's fairly crisp, I wouldn't want to alter it. The Trigger on my Ruger new model Single-six has a 30 oz. Wolff trigger return spring and I'm going to guess it has about a 2.5 lb trigger pull but it has some creep which is very smooth. The trigger on my Ruger MKII Stainless 5.5 in heavy barrel target with Volquartsen internals is very similar to the Single-six only little lighter trigger pull and a little less creep. My Smith & Wesson model 617-1 has no modifications whatsoever, and I'm guessing it has about a 2.5 lb trigger pull but is crisp, absolutely no creep. You just get where you know your guns and what their pull is like and adjust accordingly.
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