DA Revolvers vs Striker Fire Pistols Unintentional Discharge

[VaTom]

This thread is not intended to spark a debate about LEOs carrying striker fired pistols such as Glocks. (That debate was had many years ago.) The intent is to provide some thoughts from those who have carried and trained with both revolvers / DA-SA pistols and striker fired pistols. The recent shooting in Minnesota got me to to thinking about the trigger pull (lbs required) between revolvers in double action and striker fired pistols in high stress situations and if there is any relation to unintentional discharges during those situations.

In researching on line there are some articles on this. In my LEO training in the mid 1970's when we carried Model 10's the training was always double action NEVER single action. A Model 10 would have about a 12 lb trigger pull. Later in my career I qualified and carried a Glock 23 in a non uniform / non street cop environment. A Glock would have about a 6 lb pull. Training is to keep you finger out of the trigger guard until ready to fire.

After watching the video on the news about the recent shooting I began to wonder if the lighter trigger pull on striker fired pistols could lead or have led to more unintentional discharges under the stressful situations than a revolver with the heavier DA pull.

Any thoughts from LEOs who have carried both.

 

[UncleEd]

No, not an active or former LEO
but I'd also like to hear from
training officers as to just how
well recruits keep their fingers
off the triggers of striker fired
handguns. This especially as
stress increases in training.

 

[jeffrefrig]

I'm not LEO, but just my personal opinion. I can understand having the extra available firepower of a pistol, but if it were me & my choice, I'd go with DA/SA pistol. And, for my own personal carry, I have a striker-fired but with a safety. It takes nothing to flick down that safety to fire; I did have to pull it once (on 4-legged animal) and didn't need to fire. For duty weapon the only thing I own is a M92 Beretta. Don't really need the safety because the DA pull is similar to my Model 10. It seems like everyone hates any side arm with a safety. That 6# pull is barely noticeable; I could see accidental discharge (if it were me), and how many videos are out there when a guy gets "Glock-legged" on a shooting range?

 

[shamuscull]

There have been accidental/unintentional/negligent discharges with all firearms carried by all law enforcement. Training and more training and hope for the best when someone gets put in a stressful potentially life threatening situation. Nobody knows how someone will act until they are actually put in a situation. It's not the guns.

 

[VaTom]

Thoughts from non LEOs are also welcome!!! Not intended to exclude folks. I have been retired for 7 years and the only striker fired pistol I have is a Shield 9mm (with safety).

 

[norm]

Glocks and their like make me nervous . dA/SA OR REVOLVER FOR ME.

 

[petepeterson]

There have been accidental/unintentional/negligent discharges with all firearms carried by all law enforcement. Training and more training and hope for the best when someone gets put in a stressful potentially life threatening situation. Nobody knows how someone will act until they are actually put in a situation. It's not the guns.

I don't think you can conclusively say that it's not the guns. Logic will tell you there's a small percentage of increased possibilities for NDs with a lighter trigger.
Some departments offer a smaller firearm for those with smaller hands. If I were Chief of the World PD, every striker-fired pistol would have a NY-1 trigger on it. Maybe let the SWAT guys qualify their way out of it. There's no handicap in firepower, just a built-in margin of safety, however slight.
DA-only would be better yet.

 

[Ray1970]

There have been accidental/unintentional/negligent discharges with all firearms carried by all law enforcement. Training and more training and hope for the best when someone gets put in a stressful potentially life threatening situation. Nobody knows how someone will act until they are actually put in a situation. It's not the guns.

I agree. It's definitely has more to do with the individual than the equipment. You just don't know how high stress levels are going to affect someone and even those who might show very good trigger discipline and decision making skills on a daily basis might totally abandon those things when things are really on the line.

There are individuals that can remain focused and collected even when the stuff hits the fan but they are probably the exception and not the rule.

 

[bigwheelzip]

No comment on recent incidents, but rather service weapon trigger pulls. NYPD, the largest police agency in the country, mandates all approved service pistols be modified to produce a DAO 12lb trigger pull weight.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[VictorLouis]

NYPD, the largest police agency in the country, mandates all approved service pistols be modified to produce a DAO 12lb trigger pull weight.

Which is a huge reason they're hit-rates don't rate, LOL. Too much resistance.

I don't think you can conclusively say that it's not the guns. Logic will tell you there's a small percentage of increased possibilities for NDs with a lighter trigger.
.....If I were Chief of the World PD, every striker-fired pistol would have a NY-1 trigger on it. Maybe let the SWAT guys qualify their way out of it.

I tend to concur. I had one Glock in which I installed the NY-1 connector.
It started the trigger resistance immediately, and eliminated MUCH of the typical 2-stage feel of a standard Glock. I didn't feel the least bit handicapped by it.

How many members here have handled and dry-fired the Sig 320?
It's probably not of much interest to this crowd. However, I encourage you to take the opportunity if you happen upon one at a LGS. It is SCARY LIGHT, with SHORT travel. There's no way on earth I would want my troops on the street with such a trigger. Now, think about our soliders out there with it!

 

[pharmer]

Since 1994, I only use the safety to decock. Thumb on the hammer to re holster. Joe

 

[shamuscull]

I don't think you can conclusively say that it's not the guns. Logic will tell you there's a small percentage of increased possibilities for NDs with a lighter trigger.
Some departments offer a smaller firearm for those with smaller hands. If I were Chief of the World PD, every striker-fired pistol would have a NY-1 trigger on it. Maybe let the SWAT guys qualify their way out of it. There's no handicap in firepower, just a built-in margin of safety, however slight.
DA-only would be better yet.

So for a small percentage of increased possibility of negligent discharges you give them a gun that can be harder to get off accurate shots in a running gun battle. There is not a perfect answer and I know for sure the NYPD does not train everyone enough. They don't have the resources and many officers don't have the time or desire to do it on their own. You see a lot of talk on gun forums about hit ratio and marksmanship or lack of both. It is much easier punching holes in paper when you are not running with someone shooting at you. I never felt the NYPD guns were bad but they were not ideal because of the politics of the decisions they make when choosing their specs for service weapons. Most officers go through their careers without needing to draw their weapons.

 

[Benton Quest]

There were plenty of negligent discharges with revolvers and DA/SA duty guns. NY is a prime example.

If your booger picker is on the bang switch, where it should not be, it is very easy to stroke through 15 pounds under stress.

As far as the recent events...she willingly pulled the trigger. That was not a mistake. The mistake was the weapon that she selected.

You are suggesting a hardware solution to a software problem.

Index your trigger finger and you will be golden, regardless of weapon platform. Period. Full stop.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

 

[VaTom]

Please no comments / speculation on the recent events. For those of us who have been on the streets, viewing videos like that bring back situations in which we have found ourselves. One of mine took place back in the late 1970's. Was working as one man unit, pulled over a crazy driver who failed to stop at night (during a snow storm) and finally stuck a curb. I had drawn my revolver to get him out of the car as I didn't know what i was dealing with. He got out and then decided to get back in. I fought with him after re-holstering and finally maced him and let go of him as I didn't want to get dragged by the car. Drew down on the car as it pulled away with lights off in the snow and dark but I had the presence of mind not to shoot. We found him later when the mace kicked in and he couldn't drive anymore. He was high and drunk. Just a kid.

 

[Old_Cop]

A heavyset old timer would hitch up his duty belt and one time found that the issue model 64 was in his holster cocked. He lifted it out of the holster and put a round through the dashboard. He didn't know how to decock it. A lieutenant was standing outside Superior Court at lunch break and hitched up his pants while carrying his duty Glock .45 "mexican style". He received a leg wound from the resultant discharge.

There is no amount of trigger pull that can prevent inattention or failure to follow training.

 

[Rodan]

If your booger picker is on the bang switch, where it should not be, it is very easy to stroke through 15 pounds under stress.

As far as the recent events...she willingly pulled the trigger. That was not a mistake. The mistake was the weapon that she selected.

You are suggesting a hardware solution to a software problem.

Index your trigger finger and you will be golden, regardless of weapon platform. Period. Full stop.

This, 100%.

Unintended discharges are generally the result of three circumstances: startle response, balance disruption, or interlimb interaction. All three cause a 'gripping' response in the hands, and if your finger is on the trigger, it goes bang.

A 10-12lb trigger won't even slow it down... the difference from a 6lb trigger is negligable.

 

[mckenney99]

I know that training time in police academies is very crowded. With all the various mandated topics and minimum hours of instruction specified, time has to come from somewhere. Hell, it's going to take several days of training just to learn and define all the several hundred claimed sexual identities, and make NO mistake these seemingly silly issues are viewed as priorities with the powers at the top. Training time is driven by whatever is perceived to be the larger risk for lawsuits and most agencies will not even have an officer involved shooting in many years time span. My academy class was 19 1/2 weeks and I understand some classes are now up to 27+weeks long and that is a 24hrs/5 days a week residential academy. An additional issue currently is the availability of live ammunition. As a result, alternatives are being utilized for live fire training, Simunitions (expensive), simulators (also expensive), Airsoft guns and others. While some of these things are VERY positive there is still no substitute for live fire of your actual issue weapon.
As for officers training or practicing on their own, only VERY few are willing/motivated to shoot outside of that REQUIRED. In the 1990's I won a bit of money in a pistol match. I took those winnings a bought 2 cases of 38 spl reloads, I kept one case and took the second to the post, along with targets and target frames, free for the units use. 5 years later I checked the ammo locker and only 75 rds had been used, by one unit for qualifying with his personally owned backup gun. That's out of approximately 20 sworn officers at the post.
Realistic stress stimulated training is key, no matter what type of operating system the firearm uses, but training takes TIME and MONEY and BOTH are limited by agency budgets.

 

[hobby-gunsmith]

DA Revolver vs striker fire pistol unintentional discharge

To sum up the various answers on this topic is safety. There is a prime safety on every firearm and it is the trigger finger. The firearm will not discharge, being the weapon is functional, unless you pull the trigger. Before you act on pulling the trigger, make sure you have identified the treat and know what is beyond the intended target. Yes, the New York trigger is heavy but practice is the sure way to know when the discharge will occur. I dry fire every day for about 15 minutes and that is the key to knowing when to know how much take up there is before the sear releases. Also, the same with the revolver. Yes, I know there is about nine or ten pounds of pressure before the discharge in double action but you need to practice that take up using dry fire practice. During my department, as a firearms instructor, the side arm was a S&W Model 15 and then switched over to the S&W Model 5906. Before an officer would transition from the revolver to the Semi-Auto, the qualification was at least three days with classroom and on the range. Today, I still instill my students in dry fire every day to practice take-up and sear release. Again, finger is off the trigger until the treat is identified. As for firearm safety, I am a believer in a mechanical device and that should be incorporated during the dry fire. Each time the firearm is drawn, the safety should be released before target acquisition. If the bad guy were to relieve you of your firearm with the safety on, it will take him or her a few seconds to realize the gun will not fire and will give that time to draw your backup gun. This is a topic that has pros and cons but when you think about it, there is no other substitute that DRY FIRE. I would advise watching the Israeli video on their method of shooting. They carry with an empty barrel and they can draw and charge the firearm and ready to shoot within a half a second or less and that is way they practice and departmental mandated.
Nick

 

[VaTom]

Thanks for the great discussions. These things are important.

Training and Retraining !!!! In stressful situations you will revert to your training without thinking.
Maintaining Situational Awareness - it can change fast (both escalating and deescalating) and you need act / react accordingly.
Developing an ability to retain a presence of mind in stressful situations.
Trust your senses. LEOs usually develop a "sixth" sense and you often get a feeling when a suspect is about to fight or flee.

 

[Donn]

Couple of things from an old guy, (when I was in, my "less than lethal" was a night stick or a blackjack). Every taser I've ever seen in pictures or on a LEO was bright yellow, worn on their weak side. Service pistols like Glocks and M&P's are black. Not sure how the two could be confused. The officer was said to have 25 years service, so I expect she hired on after the transition to auto loaders. Ergo, the officer should've been well drilled on the service pistol's operation. Also, how many of those 25 years were in the bag, in a black & white? I wouldn't be surprised if this was her first time in a real stress situation. Training is critical, but it's no guarantee you'll prevail. FBI special agent Ben Grogan, (RIP), had as much training as was available back in the day, besides being FBI pistol champ. It didn't help that fateful day in Miami-Dade. Lastly, the trigger pull on my M&P is lighter than a DA revolver, but it takes a full, deliberate pull to discharge. Night & day from a 1911 or a revolver in SA. A tragic accident, but it's all on the officer.