Has it been modified?

[Turnagain]

I have a triple lock that's chambered for .45 Colt. I understand that there were very few triple locks chambered for .45 Colt and I've been told that a lot of .455 had the back of the cylinder machined to take the .45. However, it isn't a British buy. No proof marks. Batch numbers on the frame/crane match. SN is on the butt but mostly obscured by the lanyard ring. It's also on the inside of the grip frame. SN 16XX.



Usual S&W mfg Springfield Mass with patents on the top of the barrel. No caliber marking on the right side of the barrel. Marked (.45) on the left side 2.5 in from the muzzle. Is this a factory .45 or something someone has hashed together?


PS. Shoots just fine. A little sticky opening the cylinder. Looks like someone tried to re-blue the barrel and botched the job. Has the wrong grip panels for a triple lock.

 

[rct269]

I'm not that familiar with the modifications to the rear of the cylinder------heard about it----know about it-----never seen it. That said, the serial number should appear on the back side of the cylinder. If it's not there, or very faint, there's been some whittling.

As an aside, a little sticky opening the cylinder could be/frequently is a loose ejector rod---loose, as in a wee bit longer than it should be. If you're not familiar with the operation, remove the cylinder from the gun and yoke, put some empty cases in the cylinder to support the ejector, pad the ejector rod with an old belt (or some such), stick the padded rod in a vise (gently), and tighten the cylinder on the rod by hand. Easy does it-----the cylinder will move if it's loose---it won't if it isn't. Don't force things.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Turnagain]

Thanks for the answer. Yep, no SN on the back of the cylinder. What puzzles me is it's not British -- no proof marks. Neither does it have any caliber markings other than the (.45) on the left side of the barrel.



I've been noodling around on the 'net and apparently the grips are correct. Well, perhaps. I saw a reference to my style of grips for a TL but with the notation of "model 1926" which makes no sense for a TL.



I suppose the question is whether the gun is a factory modification, an original or the product of some unknown gunsmith. I've also found a reference to all .45 Colt factory chambering being in the five digit SN range. Damfino! I suppose that it will just have to remain my "mystery gun".

 

[rct269]

Some folks will be along to treat with originality, grips, and whatnot. It wouldn't hurt to have some pictures for them if you can manage that.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Turnagain]

My less than stellar computer skills don't extend to posting photos. Perhaps I should work on that.

 

[mrcvs]

It certainly sounds like your revolver was modified by a gunsmith in the United States as there are no British proofmarks. The lack of a serial number on the cylinder suggests the work is not factory. Can you provide photographs of the face of the cylinder as well as the inside of the recoil shield?

This was a common modification, by the way.

Once the moratorium on factory letters is lifted, Monday 24 January 2022, you could obtain a factory letter which would confirm the original configuration and ship location, if so desired.

 

[Ruger 13]

Pictures would be helpful!

 

[Turnagain]

Posting photos is beyond my meager computer skills. Whoever shaved the cylinder did a really good job. Very smooth, polished and blued. Sounds like a factory letter is my best option. I'm truly puzzled by the lack of any other caliber markings though. Did S&W sell any guns with no caliber markings?

 

[mrcvs]

From this thread, you can see that it is not uncommon for a Triple Lock revolver chambered in .455 Webley to lack caliber markings on the barrel.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...er-research-thread.html?526646=#post139653745

 

[Turnagain]

True, but there's no British proof marks so .455 sold to Britain are out. Since the back of the cylinder has no SN, factory job seems to be out. It's roll marked (.45) on the left side of the barrel. Apparently done by an unknown US gunsmith. SN 16XX, matching number inside shroud. Batch numbers inside frame/crane match. Looks as though I'll just have to wait until I can get a factory letter.

 

[StrawHat]

Not all of the 455 New Century Models went to Great Britain. Some were shipped to Canada but they would still have import or proof marks. Some stayed right here in the United States. These would be unmarked.

Hopefully, whoever did your cylinder work was better than the chap who worked on mine.

Kevin

 

[Turnagain]

Geez, that's rude, man. Yes, whoever worked on mine did considerably better.



My best guess is mine is a .455 that got sold here in the US with someone converting it to the far more popular .45 Colt. Closer inspection with light/mag glass shows stamped numbers with the () coming from the stamping die.


PS. Does mine have any value beyond being something of a curiosity and a good old shooter?

 

[mrcvs]

Does mine have any value beyond being something of a curiosity and a good old shooter?

All Triple Lock revolvers have value. Ones that are modified to .45 Colt with decent finish tend to bring $800 to $850.

 

[Turnagain]

Well, that's not nearly enough to tempt me to sell it. I like it and it's a good shooter. Thanks for the info, though.

 

[glowe]

455s were sold commercially, but not many. There documentation stating that 808 1st Models TLs converted to 455 1912 to 1916 and 142 sold commercially. I also assume there were rejected 455s and they were re-worked and sold off. There is only one 45 caliber that requires the rear of the cylinder to be shaved during a conversion and that is 455 to 45 Colt, since the rim of the Colt is thicker than the 455. One could shave the recoil shield or recess the cylinders to retain the serial number, but the easiest and cheapest method was to shave the cylinder. So it is likely your revolver started out life as a 455, but was modified post-factory. Any revolver leaving S&W, whether standard caliber or factory-modified would have had a serial number stamped on the rear of the cylinder.

You mentioned that the serial number was obscured by the lanyard ring? The factory would have never done that, so your revolver is also modified with the addition of the lanyard ring. Serial numbers were moved to the rear of the lanyard hole. I have a 455 that was stamped twice at the factory. Do not know why, but wartime production would have used up every part available and most likely they had a stamped frame that was fitted to another barrel and cylinder to keep production going. Compare your lanyard ring to the factory one on my 455 and let us know if it is the same design?

Pictures are needed to help you in more detail, but you have an interesting gun there.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

I can help you with picture posting. Go HERE and watch the video tutorials. If you have questions, PM me.


It sounds like your gun was modified outside the factory. If you only have ".45" stamped on the barrel, all the S&W markings have been removed. Here are some pictures of my .455 Triple Lock that was modified for .45 Colt. The cylinder was shaved on it to provide headspace.

 

[Muley Gil]

455s were sold commercially, but not many. There documentation stating that 808 1st Models TLs converted to 455 1912 to 1916 and 142 sold commercially. I also assume there were rejected 455s and they were re-worked and sold off. There is only one 45 caliber that requires the rear of the cylinder to be shaved during a conversion and that is 455 to 45 Colt, since the rim of the Colt is thicker than the 455. One could shave the recoil shield or recess the cylinders to retain the serial number, but the easiest and cheapest method was to shave the cylinder. So it is likely your revolver started out life as a 455, but was modified post-factory. Any revolver leaving S&W, whether standard caliber or factory-modified would have had a serial number stamped on the rear of the cylinder.

You mentioned that the serial number was obscured by the lanyard ring? The factory would have never done that, so your revolver is also modified with the addition of the lanyard ring. Serial numbers were moved to the rear of the lanyard hole. I have a 455 that was stamped twice at the factory. Do not know why, but wartime production would have used up every part available and most likely they had a stamped frame that was fitted to another barrel and cylinder to keep production going. Compare your lanyard ring to the factory one on my 455 and let us know if it is the same design?

Pictures are needed to help you in more detail, but you have an interesting gun there.

Yes, they did. There have been several revolvers posted here on the Forum, over the years, where the factory added a lanyard loop. If an order came in for a revolver and there were no un-numbered frames available, S&W would install the loop through the SN and re-stamp the SN on the side of the grip frame. The OP mentioned in his 1st post that the SN was also found on the grip frame.

This could possibly be a .44 Special TL that was re-chambered at the factory to .455.

Welcome to the Forum Turnagain.

 

[glowe]

Sorry, but I missed the re-stamped serial number, so at least the factory installed the lanyard ring. Jury is still out as to what happened to the caliber and the serial number on the back of the cylinder? 455s in the serial number range of the OP's gun were documented as "converted" to 455 Mark IIs, being part of the first 808 sent to the British. I assume that means they started out life as 44 Specials and were altered to 455 to supply 455s to England?

Interesting that there were eight 1600 serial number range guns shipped to Europe. If you supply the full serial number we can determine if yours is on the list.

 

[Hondo44]

True, but there's no British proof marks so .455 sold to Britain are out. Since the back of the cylinder has no SN, factory job seems to be out. It's roll marked (.45) on the left side of the barrel. Apparently done by an unknown US gunsmith. SN 16XX, matching number inside shroud. Batch numbers inside frame/crane match. Looks as though I'll just have to wait until I can get a factory letter.

1. Knowing the full serial # could help us immensely to identify your gun.

2. .455 Mk II Triple locks were not caliber rollmarked, as reported in my study in the 1st and 2nd groups that the OP's TL could be in were cal marked.

See my study here and go to post #223 for the database info, page 5:

.455 British Svc Revolver Research Thread

either in the first group (factory converted from .44 models within the .44 serial # range: 666 to the British and the remainder of the 812 total sold retail). Or the 2nd group produced in .455 Mk II (within the British Contract serial # range).


3. Some in both groups were sold to the public.

The 1600 range serial #s in the first group that went to the British are: #s 1600, 1615, 1616, 1617, 1657, 1662, 1673.
NOTE: These guns in the first group will often have factory added lanyard swivels when converted to 455 at the factory by drilling thru the serial # which is factory re-stamped on the left side of the grip frame under the stock.

The serial #s in the 2nd group which are in the British serial # range are #s 1 thru 5857. Serial #s of which were sold retail are unknown except for a very few that have been lettered.

4. I agree, your gun was a 455 converted aftermarket to 45 Colt and stamped 45 on the barrel by the converter.
NOTE: even factory .45 Colt chambered Triple Locks were not caliber stamped.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Jim, look at my triple lock picture in an earlier post. It is caliber stamped. And IIRC in your research on this on the forum, the majority of triple locks reported were caliber stamped. Or, am I missing something?