Anyone have experience with one of these Ithaca built SxS guns? I will be looking at one in a couple days and don't have a good handle on what to look for, value, etc. Any help appreciated.
TIA
Robbie
TIA
Robbie
Western Arms Long Range 410
- Thread starter Rubone
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Ivan the Butcher
Member
In general, 410 SxS's tend to hold up better/longer because of the lighter recoil.
The areas to closely inspect are the wrist and around the locks (if a sidelock or hammer gun). The butt plate should fit like S&W grips, or it has been replaced, a good indication of rough treatment.
Don't expect any case colors as they fade from use, carrying and cleaning (people varnished over case colors to preserve them, but removing the stock oils and varnishes can damage otherwise fine firearms).
Very few old 410's have chokes from the factory that are not very tight (Imp Mod to Extra Full). The cardboard hull and overshot cards worked to loosen up the patterns, modern ammo shoots much tighter through those old full chokes!
Ivan
The areas to closely inspect are the wrist and around the locks (if a sidelock or hammer gun). The butt plate should fit like S&W grips, or it has been replaced, a good indication of rough treatment.
Don't expect any case colors as they fade from use, carrying and cleaning (people varnished over case colors to preserve them, but removing the stock oils and varnishes can damage otherwise fine firearms).
Very few old 410's have chokes from the factory that are not very tight (Imp Mod to Extra Full). The cardboard hull and overshot cards worked to loosen up the patterns, modern ammo shoots much tighter through those old full chokes!
Ivan
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OP
Thanks Ivan!
OP
It is about 90 years old...
Western Arms was a brand and branch of Ithaca Arms company started up in the early 1930's.
The guns were made right in the Ithaca Gun factory in NY.
The Western Arms SxS's were a somewhat less expensive option to the already less expensive Ithaca 'Lefever Nitro Special' SxS on the market .
The Lefever Nitro Special was a less expensive but solid SxS option to the NID Ithaca SxS's.
Not a lot of difference between the Lefever N/Special and the Western Arms brand SxS.
The lockup is slightly different. Probably the biggest difference is one most people never notice in that the Western Arms frame is a steel casting (sometimes called a malleable steel,,sometimes the frames refered to as being malleable iron,,,)
They were a casting,,lets say that. Just like the most all of the Stevens , IJ and other economy SxS and single shot shotguns of the day.
The Lefever N/Spl has it's frame made from a forging. Then machined to final shape. Stronger, but the Western Arms hold up just fine as a shotgun.
Not much in the options dept was available. A single trigger was available after a time. There were some different versions but pretty much a plain utility gun.
IIRC, they used the same choke designations and stamp placement on the Western Arms guns as they did on the Nitro Specials and all the Ithaca SxS's
On the bbl flats (at the forward end of the flats) will be a number designation for the choke for that bbl.
The chokes run 0,S,1,2,3,4
0-cyl
S-Skeet (rarily seen except on 'Skeet Special' grades)
1-IC
2-MOD
3-IM
4-F
The 410 gauge version like any 410 SxS these days will usually get some serious money if unaltered (like cut bbls or cut stock).
The 410's are very much appreciated by the SxS crowd wether they are a Westerrn arms, a Lefever N/Spcl, or a Stevens 311.
There was a ser# /yr mfgr list printed in a past issue of Double Gun Journal in an Article about these. I don't know which yr/issue it was or if that info may be on the net with some searching.
At least the info is out there and not lost like a lot of old data.
The guns were made right in the Ithaca Gun factory in NY.
The Western Arms SxS's were a somewhat less expensive option to the already less expensive Ithaca 'Lefever Nitro Special' SxS on the market .
The Lefever Nitro Special was a less expensive but solid SxS option to the NID Ithaca SxS's.
Not a lot of difference between the Lefever N/Special and the Western Arms brand SxS.
The lockup is slightly different. Probably the biggest difference is one most people never notice in that the Western Arms frame is a steel casting (sometimes called a malleable steel,,sometimes the frames refered to as being malleable iron,,,)
They were a casting,,lets say that. Just like the most all of the Stevens , IJ and other economy SxS and single shot shotguns of the day.
The Lefever N/Spl has it's frame made from a forging. Then machined to final shape. Stronger, but the Western Arms hold up just fine as a shotgun.
Not much in the options dept was available. A single trigger was available after a time. There were some different versions but pretty much a plain utility gun.
IIRC, they used the same choke designations and stamp placement on the Western Arms guns as they did on the Nitro Specials and all the Ithaca SxS's
On the bbl flats (at the forward end of the flats) will be a number designation for the choke for that bbl.
The chokes run 0,S,1,2,3,4
0-cyl
S-Skeet (rarily seen except on 'Skeet Special' grades)
1-IC
2-MOD
3-IM
4-F
The 410 gauge version like any 410 SxS these days will usually get some serious money if unaltered (like cut bbls or cut stock).
The 410's are very much appreciated by the SxS crowd wether they are a Westerrn arms, a Lefever N/Spcl, or a Stevens 311.
There was a ser# /yr mfgr list printed in a past issue of Double Gun Journal in an Article about these. I don't know which yr/issue it was or if that info may be on the net with some searching.
At least the info is out there and not lost like a lot of old data.
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OP
Thanks for all that, it helps!
Robbie,
I look forward to seeing your pictures of the "new to you" 410 SxS.
Larry
I look forward to seeing your pictures of the "new to you" 410 SxS.
Larry
OP
Robbie,
I look forward to seeing your pictures of the "new to you" 410 SxS.
Larry
Getting a little nervous as the viewing date has been postponed until next Monday.....
OP
Well, it is now mine! It shows honest wear and tear for a 90 year old firearm, but overall in good shape and it appears to function OK, won't know for sure until I get to shoot it. 2-1/2" only shells, which is just fine. And it has the automatic ejectors which were an option. Bores are very nice, clean and shiny.
And along with it a nice Model 06 Winchester 22 pump. Both from the family so a nice pair to preserve (which means clean, use, and appreciate, not hide away!).
And along with it a nice Model 06 Winchester 22 pump. Both from the family so a nice pair to preserve (which means clean, use, and appreciate, not hide away!).
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Ivan the Butcher
Member
Really looks like a keeper!
Weather you reload or not, keep every empty hull for a rainy-day project. There are actually only two kinds of wads: 1) regardless of brand, the white wads, and 2) the AA red wad for "HS" hulls. Winchester 296 powder and W209 primers and shot of your choice, and you can reload any plastic 410 hull. With a friends MEC 600 Jr. press, you can load around 150 to 200 an hour. On a Progressive about 350. I get 8 and sometimes 10 reloading out of a hull.
Enjoy that old girl!
Ivan
Weather you reload or not, keep every empty hull for a rainy-day project. There are actually only two kinds of wads: 1) regardless of brand, the white wads, and 2) the AA red wad for "HS" hulls. Winchester 296 powder and W209 primers and shot of your choice, and you can reload any plastic 410 hull. With a friends MEC 600 Jr. press, you can load around 150 to 200 an hour. On a Progressive about 350. I get 8 and sometimes 10 reloading out of a hull.
Enjoy that old girl!
Ivan
Rubone, what does that .410 weigh?
OP
I'm getting 5 lbs 14 oz on a simple scale. Barrels are 26" with one marked 2 and one 4 so mod and full. Serial number shows it at 1930 production, fairly early model.
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A couple of nice looking guns!
Ejectors on the Western Arms too..that's a big plus for value.
The little 410 Western Arms SxS's go for anywhere from $500 to over $1000 depending on condition and extras.
410's are hardly ever inexpensive..
Winchester 1906 Pump 22 think also. That looks like it's in nice condition.
Great pump .22 rifle.
Congrats !
Ejectors on the Western Arms too..that's a big plus for value.
The little 410 Western Arms SxS's go for anywhere from $500 to over $1000 depending on condition and extras.
410's are hardly ever inexpensive..
Winchester 1906 Pump 22 think also. That looks like it's in nice condition.
Great pump .22 rifle.
Congrats !
It's easier to find a nice 62A or 1890 than a nice 1906. Most 1906s were used hard and were the lower end and cheaper .22 pump. If you find a 1906 in good shape some collector will want it. I like it and the .410 double also.
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