38+P loads using 158 XTPs- ideas?

Fide686

Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2016
Messages
186
Reaction score
325
Location
Near Canandaigua, NY
Since it’s almost impossible to find supplies of good SD bullets (Speer 135’s Golden Sabers, etc) and Hornady 158 gr. XTPs seem to be stocked at local gun shops, I’m working on loads in case the shortage continues.
So far, I have:
4.5gr. HP38 spm primers 38 case
1 7/8” 740fps
2 1/2” 787fps
3” 804fps
Has anyone gone down this path, and has some suggestions?
Thanks in advance.
 
Register to hide this ad
That's a pretty good bullet, IMHO: per Hodgdons 5.5gr of Longshot should give you a significant boost in fps if that's what you are looking for...?

Cheers!

P.S. Are those SPMs the only primers you have?
 
For a true +P load that is still within the 20,000 psi limits use 6.0 grs of Hodgdon Long shot or Alliant Power Pistol. From pressure tested loads of .38 spl +P articles in Handloader magazine. Real Alliant data actually goes up to 6.2 grs of Power Pistol as does Speer data I think.
 
I usually use HS-6 or the newer W572 for my .38 Special +P loads. I use a lot of W231/HP-38 for .38 Special ammo but if you want more velocity go to a slower powder.

Like said above, nothing wrong with the XTP bullet.
 
You might also look at the Hornady 140 gr. XTP out of the 2" barrel.

My J frame can get it up to 897fps with w231.

Out of a 6" barrel, 844 to 1112fps is possible...........
if the 158 XTP's don't work out.
 
Take a look at the Hornady chart for velocities that should expand their XTP bullets: the 38 caliber 158gr XTP-HP shows from 700 fps on up...

I'm not guaranteeing anything, but...

Just an FYI.

CHEERS!
 
Thanks, I have some longshot that I can try. I had to but a case of Fed spm primers due to availability. They have been working fine- usually a few fps faster.

It is true , Longshot will increase velocity but it's nickname is LOUDshot. The report is excessively loud IMO.
 
The XTP should be a great defensive applications bullet, I wouldnt want to find out. You should read up on their hunt successes and what hunters say about them.
 
Hornady lists the expansion velocity range for the 158 gr XTP as 700 to 1500 fps. However, the expansion at the bottom of that range is a bit spotty in my personal chronograph and ballistic gel experience. You are going to want *at least* 800 fps.

More velocity is definitely better and you really need a +P load in a short barrel revolver to get reliable expansion with the 158 gr XTP.

The XTP series were designed to expand at relatively low velocities to meet the FBI 1.5x expansion and 12”-18” penetration criteria back when it was fairly new. However, it’s a more traditional mushroom type of expansion rather than the jagged star fish shaped expansion you get with more modern hollow points.

HS-6 is a little slow for the short barrels involved.

Power Pistol is a good choice as it gives about 50 fps more velocity in the .38 Special than other powders with the 158 gr XTP.

The Hornady 11th edition lists the following as maximum +p) loads with the 158 gr XTP:

6.5 gr HS-6

6.0 gr Power Pistol

5.1 gr Unique

4.9 gr HP38/Win 231

4.5 gr Bullseye

All of them are listed as 800 fps loads in a 4” Model 15, with the exception of 850 fps for the Power Pistol load.

——

Your velocities in those barrel lengths are on par with what you should be getting. Hornady lists 4.6 grains as max for the standard pressure .38 Special but as noted above you can bump it up to 4.9 gr with the +P load and pick up another 50 fps.


——-


Personally, I use the 125 gr XTP in .357 Magnum loads with 8.5 to 9.0 grains (Hornady third edition loads) of Unique, with the powder charge ladder stopping at the point the cases start to stick on ejection and backing up a grain so the cases drop free. I get around 1250 fps in my 3” 686+ and the bullet expands very well at that velocity, while recoil is very manageable and about 35% less than a 125 gr load using a large charge of H110/Win 296.

In my experience you need *at least* 1050 fps for expansion with the 125 gr XTPs.
 
Last edited:
I’m on the low end of the experience curve here, but my considered opinion is that with 38sp you are handicapped by a lower pressure max and generally lower velocities, and probably by a 2” barrel as well, so lead is called for (rather than jacketed).

And with the street cred of the soft LSWCHP FBI load, that seems like the easy answer.

JHP fer sure in 9mm, 357, etc.
 
Shooting any .357 jacketed bullet that is rated to be shot in a .357 Magnum at magnum velocities is not going to expand at all in a human body at the low end of their supposed velocity range. .

Ballistic gelatin is a solid homogeneous mass...a human body is not. Bullets taken from actual shootings look nothing like the ones in the adds...

If you want expansion under 1000 fps look at the lead HPs from GT Bullets or Rim Rock.

I just have one .38 snubbie left...a 649-2, and it is only carried with the Buffalo Bore 158 +P loads in both solid and HP...

Bob
 
Last edited:
I’m on the low end of the experience curve here, but my considered opinion is that with 38sp you are handicapped by a lower pressure max and generally lower velocities, and probably by a 2” barrel as well, so lead is called for (rather than jacketed).

And with the street cred of the soft LSWCHP FBI load, that seems like the easy answer.

JHP fer sure in 9mm, 357, etc.

The elusive FBI 158 gr LSWCHP hollow point load.

It was made by Winchester, Remington and eventually Federal, but it was a lot more complex than it sounds or than it was remembered.

The lead alloy had to be soft enough to expand at relatively slow .38 +P velocities yet hard enough to not strip in the rifling after passing through the throat and forcing cone and cause excessive leading. The two requirements work against each other.

All three manufacturers had issues with it, and Federal really struggled with it.

I’ve worked on replicating it from time to time and it’s a big challenge. Lots of shooters talk about “hard cast” bullets, but allows that hard won’t expand at all, even at .357 Mag velocities.

Swaged lead bullets like the Hornady 158 gr LSWCHP are usually soft enough to expand at +P velocities, but generally will cause leading that becomes excessive after a couple cylinders.

I ended up adding two light coats of liquid Alox on top of the existing lube to get acceptable accuracy over a 50 round course of fire. And expansion isn’t any more significant or reliable than a 125 gr XTP at the same velocity.
 
The secret to a bullets ability to "Mushroom" or expand is............
the fps that it is fired at and how it is made and its makeup.

As mentioned, lead has tobe soft enough and a JHP needs a thin copper coat.
Get the "Mix" just right and and these loads will work and look good, in most gel test.

Plus they have to work in the gun and with the shooter.

Finding a good SD load can be a very trying thing.
 
Shooting any .357 jacketed bullet that is rated to be shot in a .357 Magnum at magnum velocities is not going to expand at all in a human body at the low end of their supposed velocity range. .

Ballistic gelatin is a solid homogeneous mass...a human body is not. Bullets taken from actual shootings look nothing like the ones in the adds...

If you want expansion under 1000 fps look at the lead HPs from GT Bullets or Rim Rock.

I just have one .38 snubbie left...a 649-2, and it is only carried with the Buffalo Bore 158 +P loads in both solid and HP...

Bob

As noted in my prior post, it’s still a fine line between leading and expansion at .38 +P velocities with LSWCHP bullets. The GT bullets use 2-2-96 alloy that is soft enough to expand with a Brinell hardness of about 9-10. But leading is still an issue.

The Rimrock bullets are gas checked, but are generally too hard to expand with a Brinell hardness around 12-15.

——-

Otherwise I’m in agreement. The gel junkies get the whole concept of ballistic gel at least partly wrong. It’s not meant to perfectly replicate a human body. It’s designed to provide a repeatable test medium where bullet expansion and performance can be reliably measured, replicated and compared.

Folks who don’t understand the difference between “reliability” and “validity” in statistical terms get the two confused.

The irony is that the gel junkies then attack the data folks who look at data culled from actual shoots. They seem to forget, or never understood, that large data sets on actual shoots were used to identify effective loads, that in turn were fired into ballistic gel to see what a good performing load looked like in ballistic gelatin.

At some point the tail started wagging the dog and gel performance started to be what mattered in many peoples’ eyes. That has created some interesting problems. For example there are a number of loads that have performed well in real world shoots and are well regarded by many police departments that do not perform well in ballistic gelatin. That is particularly the case in the “4 layer denim” test that has far too often become a proxy for the FBIs heavy clothing test, which has a single layer each of:
- cotton t shirt,
- cotton shirt,
- polar fleece, and
- denim.

I’ve tested a few of those well regarded loads and they often don’t expand or expand poorly in the FBIs preferred 10% ballistic gel, but do just fine in something similar to Paul Harrell’s meat target, and often perform fine in the US military’s preferred 20% ballistic gel.

Unfortunately the use of 10% ballistic gel has driven development of bullets that perform really well in ballistic gel, that probably doesn’t have all that much validity.
 
Hornady loads this bullet at an advertised 800fps, which I assume is standard pressure. The Lucky Gunner test shows 716fps out of a 2" barrel. 18" of penetration and zero expansion. At +P pressure you might get another 80-100fps but I still don't think it will expand. Believe it or not the 125gr XTP's clocked a full 110fps faster and penetrated 2" less but still didn't expand.

I'm not trying to throw cold water on your project but I think you would get the same performance with a LSWC and save a few bucks.
The FTX's always get a bit of derision on forums but at least they expand at these velocities.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/
 
Last edited:
The issue of bullet expansion always comes up whenever JHPs are loaded for SD use. It may not be possible to get much if any expansion from 158 gr JHPs at .38 spl velocities. And a 158 gr cast SWC is cheaper and can be driven faster with the same powder charge. So the cast bullet is what I would use and do use in my handloads. But the issue of bullet expansion is thus over rated and many seem to think that if a bullet doesn’t expand it is useless. Many people are shot dead with .380 and 9mm FMJ bullets. So a 158 gr JHP is certainly useful if that’s all you have but wouldn’t be a good first choice if others are available.
 
Back
Top