Schofield 2nd model US UPDATE PHOTOS ADDED

[S&W ucla]

Looking at a well worn 2nd model, US marked 3501. Brown and white, some pitting, tiny amount blue. Frame, cylinder, barrel, latch, grip sn match. Cut to 5" bbl, frosty bore but lands and grooves ok. Mechanics are good working order. P on frame under grips. P on cylinder face, also W under sn. W P on bbl flat near hinge. Inside frame with bbl open I can't see a P but it is corroded near the hinge. In front of cyl stop and screw, is a tiny faint 4 with a larger W above it. Those are the only markings I see other than correct Schofield patents and markings. Military research available? Any help or ideas appreciated.

UPDATE-------
I have done no cleaning, only light oil. Letter shows shipment to National Armory, Springfield, Oct. 12, 1876 3,000 units.

Photos below. Barrel measurement from face of cylinder. I've been following the WF&Co thread, very interesting. Could this be a different express co? I find no markings to show. Front sight has a ding, I'm sure from being dropped by the stage driver when Black Bart was robbing them!
That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

 

[opoefc]

Any traces of the cartouche on the original stocks ? If so, it's a military gun. Ed

 

[Wiregrassguy]

I can't help you, Steve. But I'll bump this thread so someone who can will see it. It would be hard for me to pass it up, cut barrel and all...jes sayin'

 

[S&W ucla]

I can't see any markings on stocks other than SN inside. They are well worn, so a cartouche may have worn off.

 

[BMur]

Wells Fargo?

The stamps, letters, you describe are military inspectors stamps so I'd feel confident that it's the real deal. More curious about the 5" barrel? Could it be a Wells Fargo?

Also, I saw a "bulged barrel" Schofield sell for $1,800 recently so if it works and is matching with decent grips and markings? I'd say that's your baseline.

Murph

 

[S&W ucla]

It doesn't have any Wells Fargo markings or additional numbers. Any way to research military units it may have gone to?

 

[BMur]

Military records

Most of the Military records aren't that detailed for the Schofield as far as I know. Some are listed as issued to the 4th infantry etc ( Im not near my notes) I remember that The first 3000 model 1's were issued prior to The Little Big Horn and over 30 officers purchased them from various Cavalry units but most records are only partial at best.

I wouldn't eliminate this gun from the Wells Fargo possibility since I've documented many that have had the markings removed. You'd have to see the muzzle crown and measure the "exact length" for it to qualify as a potential Wells Fargo gun. I'd have to see it! Those that are legit Wells Fargo Guns were cut to 5" by Major Distributors so they were professionally cut to a specific length in 3 known contracts. Each contract was slightly different but professionally performed.

Murph

 

[S&W ucla]

On closer inspection it was rougher than I thought. Correct #d parts but more pitting and some damage to front sight and rib. I went ahead and got it as a survivor, lol. Letter says it shipped October 12, 1876 to National Armory, Springfield, MA in a shipment of 3000 units. Will try to get pics up next week.

 

[opoefc]

FYI That Oct. 12, 1876 "ship" date is the date the factory invoiced the Gov't for these guns, it's not the actuaal date the gun left S&W. Roy Jinks uses the invoice date for the factory historical letters as he says, ( correctly) the original Schofield records are very fragile and trying to look thrun them for exact dates will further damage them. Researchers have found military inventories of Schofield serial numbers for guns present at dates prior to the invoice date. Ed

 

[S&W ucla]

Photos added in 1st post

 

[BMur]

Express gun

Excellent photos.

Please take a very close look on the grip strap for any sign of markings. Or the removal of same. Look closely. Please post photos in good light. This is likely not a Wells Fargo Express purchased example but has a high probability of being an American Express example.

American Express guns are extremely rare only because they removed the markings on most of them "prior" to being sold to Surplus. I have enough evidence to make a strong argument on that position. Yours is awesome because it looks untouched!


Murph

 

[opoefc]

It's possible to get a "hit" on a Schofield being issued to a specific military unit by researching in the military archives for "Change of Command" events for units that were issued Schofields. Regulations for that event required a list, by serial numner, of all small arms present & and accounted for at the time of the event, as the new CO had to sign off on responsibility for those small arms as received from the out going CO. Any Schofields on the original unit inventory, not accounted for in the change of command, had to be satisfactorily explained by the old CO as to where they went ( Stolen, lost, returned for repairs, etc. ) or their value was charged to the old CO. Ed

 

[S&W ucla]

This is the best I could take with my phone. Curved surface and narrow subject messed with focus. I can't make out any old markings on backstrap, but it does appear coarser than front strap and bottom of frame.

 

[BMur]

American Express Co.

Woah,
That backstrap has seen the elephant for sure. Oh well. It was a long shot. Unfortunately, there are no other records that I am aware of at this point in my research to prove either way regarding this example. It sure has the right stuff for one though.

American Express guns were soft stamped on the backstrap and usually found with mild grind marks centered but not always. Many of the guns had the markings removed and went to surplus often refinished to achieve maximum resale. The same can be said of the Baltimore Police Baby Russians. The only evidence left is the backstrap grind marks. However, those were sent to a well known Distributor so they can be further researched via Historical records.

These American Express Schofield revolvers remain extremely difficult to legitimize without the original company stamp or grind marks remaining.

It also looks like yours has been sanded on the backstrap in an attempt to remove the rust. It's very shiny like it's been worked on recently...Unfortunately, that might have removed the property stamp removal grind marks! That's not a good thing. A very common problem with research on these is that collectors inadvertently remove evidence of an authentic "Express Gun".... Very expensive mistake!!!

Murph

 

[S&W ucla]

It also looks like yours has been sanded on the backstrap in an attempt to remove the rust. It's very shiny like it's been worked on recently..

It doesn't look like sanding at all. More of a fine orange peel texture. Maybe heavy rust removed chemically, but why not remove other rust? Nothing has been done to this gun in the last 2 years other than light oiling. Before that, ?

Thanks for your very informed responses. In any case, it was US service and then probably wild west pistola. Maybe it was Black Bart's favorite!

 

[BMur]

More info

Thank You for posting.

I did log it and if I find any further info I'll post it on this web. I apologize for the "recent" remark. I wasn't pointing fingers. Just disappointed that it wasn't there. I would still wager that it was an Express gun. They gobbled them up with 5" barrels. The cut looks very clean from your photo's and is the correct length for one of the contracts that I've documented but that honestly isn't enough to stand on solid ground. The American Express Schofield Revolvers are a very difficult subject to follow. The Market does appreciate them though, big time.

The company did a really good job erasing their existence once they went to Surplus. That includes later contracts involving factory markings on 38 Smith & Wesson double actions and 38 Colt Lightnings. They are hard to find with the markings still on them and yet thousands of them were purchased on clearly documented contracts.

Just one quick example. The Colt Lightning I have been documenting since 1985 with the Am EXP CO 192 (Example) marking on the backstrap. That contract was from 1891-1907 that involved over 2000 guns. I have documented only 31 guns from that contract and of those 31 I have copies of 19 factory letters. That's not even 2% of the total in 37 years looking? This is just one example that supports that the markings were removed prior to the guns going to Surplus. I've seen and documented several that have the markings partially removed. AM EX removed and CO and property number clear as a bell. Or just the property Number wiped clean. Very similiar survey of the Japanese Mum removed on the WWII surplus guns. Often only a weak attempt.

There are a lot of Colt lightnings out there and Smith & Wesson 38's that have the markings removed that would letter as an Express Gun. Likely in collections with the owner having NO CLUE that the gun they own was actually an Express gun.


Murph

 

[Books]

Murph:

Would the American Express Schofields have been marked like the later DA .38s?

Books

 

[BMur]

Factory Contract

Hey Books,

The example you posted is part of the factory stamped contract of just over 2000 guns beginning with property stamp number 1 and ending with just a little above 2000. So that would be AM. EX. CO. 1 - AM. EX CO 20xx. That's what I remember from my research. Can't remember the exact dates of the contract but it very closely mimics the Colt Lightning contract. In fact these contracts very likely were introduced to gradually "replace" the Schofields. I'm away from my notes for a few weeks. Soaking up some time off.

The Schofield American Express guns were stamped in a hurry just like the Wells Fargo examples. I'm still gathering information on those. Documented two different contract stamps and barrel lengths. I honestly do not want to post that info in lieu of folks wanting to produce counterfeits.

If you come across one I can evaluate it from what I have gathered so far.

Murph

 

[S&W ucla]

I honestly do not want to post that info in lieu of folks wanting to produce counterfeits

You were right, mine's an AMEX gun!
A forensic scientist was able to pull out the removed markings! It must have been one of the later models as it has the chip.