Speed for 38special with Hornady 125gr XTP bullets

[rhodesengr]

So I went to build some 357 mag loads today and it turns out two years ago when I ordered brass, I either ordered wrong or they sent wrong. I have 357 Max not Mag. So no 357 mags for tomorrow. I punted and made some 38spl +p with 7.1gr; sort of in the middle of the +p range for AA#5.

Anyone want some 357 Max Starline brass?

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Good luck finding someone with that cool cartridge, but if you do they should be interested...

Cheers!

P.S. I just reread this thread: when did you switch to wanting to load 357 Magnums? Every reference was to 38 Special and circa 1k fps velocity...

You can always use small rifle primers in a pinch: your L-frame should provide plenty of hammer strike to fire them off.

Getting good XTP expansion at 357 Magnum velocities is a snap!

 

[Biggfoot44]

Unless the mfg explicitly states otherwise in the fine print of the owners manual , fixed sight .38spl revolvers are nominally regulated for 158 gr @ nominal 755fps
( Yeah , yeah , in recent years 130gr fmj is the current dominant " practice ammo" , anf 158 rnl is rare to see on a shelf . But 158 is still the legacy industry standard .)

You're seeing widely different things , because things actually do vary widely
From mfg to mfg , lot to lot from same mfg to mfg , and gun to gun . FWIW , at the tail end of the Revolver Era , mainstream offerings were typically advertised at about 950 fps from 4 inch vented test bbl . In current era , there are several boutique mfgs that have offerings significantly higher .

As .455 Hunter suggests , the only way to comfidently and accurately approach load development seeking to approximate factory offerings , is to chronograph factory loads from Your Gun for a baseline , and develop loads from Your Gun with similar velocity .

I'm not in your area , nor shop in the same stores . but defensive ammo for .38 +P ( and .357mag ) is being made , and is on the market . Not necessarily every offering , from every makers , but a sufficient plentitude of ammo reasonably suitable for intended purposes . If not at your corner store , you might have to visit a large- ish gun show , or order using that newfangled Internet thing . Even if it costs a premium , your not going to be plinking with it . A couple boxes to test to establish baselines , or even to load up for actual Defensive purposes won't break the bank . Use your duplication handloads for practicing or recreation .

As everyone is saying , basic chronographs are cheap , and if you are seeking to develop loads that ( meet a particular velocity goal ) , it's not possible to do so without one .

Sugguested loads for AA-5 ? I dunno . Haven't loaded .38spl with AA-5 . But it's a medium speed powder, with burn rate in same general neighborhood as Unique , and should be able to provide any reasonably plausible velocity level in .38spl .

 

[Forrest r]

By all means use what you are comfortable with. If they say mag primers then you know what they tested with. More specifically winchester sp mag primers.

Myself I see the winchester mag primer use as a "blanket" statement. They also used mag primers with:
AA#2 which burns faster then clays
zip which is their version of WW231
Solo 1000 which is their version of bullseye
AA#5 which is their version of power pistol.

Clays, ww231, bullseye & power pistol don't need mag primers. But yet most 357mag data lists the use of mag primers for testing simply because it's a lot easier to print the use of 1 primer
vs multiple primers for the same bullet/load.

At the end of the day you'll get more variance in the velocities of your reloads by shooting them muzzle up then muzzle down over a chronogrph then using a standard sp primer with that 125gr/AA#5/375mag load.

 

[glenwolde]

I'm pretty sure somebody would be willing to trade you .357 Magnum brass for .357 Maximum. That cartridge has seen a bit of a resurgence since some states that were previously shotgun-only for deer now allow straight wall cased rifle ammo.

While you're on the right track, you need to take listed velocities with a grain of salt. There's a lot of variables that can cause widespread variations in results. Even if you found data using your exact load with your exact model of gun there can still be a lot of variation. Without a chronograph you'll need to guess on the high side.

 

[342ti]

Never heard of anyone loading by "velocity" before, as most handliaders now, and through the years didn't have chronies. Don't get too wrapped up in speed Bud, although most of those new to reloading do, it's not a true measure of a cartridges effectiveness. You do know the most effective weight bullet for 38/357 is 158gr? Stick with Factory 158gr JHp/JSP for SD, you're loads will never match those for SD needs.

 

[ironhead7544]

IMHO the 110 gr hollow point is the way to go in 38 Special.

This comes from varmint hunting with a 4 inch barrel. At 1100 fps expansion works well at close range, out to 25 yards or a bit more.

With the 125 gr JHP, I upped the velocity in the 357 load to 1300 fps for longer range with a scoped M19 6 incher. This load killed varmints at 100 yards DRT.

I have been excoriated a number of times for saying I test all my carry ammo on varmints. But I know what kind of wounds my ammo makes.
When you are protecting your family, you need the right tools.

 

[rhodesengr]

You do know the most effective weight bullet for 38/357 is 158gr? Stick with Factory 158gr JHp/JSP for SD, you're loads will never match those for SD needs.

Well I didn't know that 158gr is the most effective weight. I did do some research before buying the 125 XTP's although not exhaustive. I looked on several ammo company websites to see what they were selling for ammo designed for defense. It just seemed like the 125gr weight was pretty common. I'd be happy to buy commercial ammo but don't like to pay gouging prices and there is not much availability. Being in Cali and near the metro area, there are not many stores nearby that sell ammo at all. Since I was already set up for 38spl and 357, I figured I might as well make some for the time being.

Maybe the velocity thing is from my trap background. I mostly shoot trap and velocity is a big deal there. The rules specify maximum velocity for each load weight.

I ordered a ProChrono last night

 

[glenwolde]

IMHO the 110 gr hollow point is the way to go in 38 Special.

This comes from varmint hunting with a 4 inch barrel. At 1100 fps expansion works well at close range, out to 25 yards or a bit more.

With the 125 gr JHP, I upped the velocity in the 357 load to 1300 fps for longer range with a scoped M19 6 incher. This load killed varmints at 100 yards DRT.

I have been excoriated a number of times for saying I test all my carry ammo on varmints. But I know what kind of wounds my ammo makes.
When you are protecting your family, you need the right tools.

Remember the 95gr JHP Remington load/bullets....?

 

[Old Corp]

I'd never advise to go beyond published data - BUT, guess what? It's been done carefully by experienced loaders who know how to look for pressure signs, and for a very long time.
I've been loading .38 Spl. and .38 Spl +P for longer that I care to think about. In fact, I can date myself by stating Unique and 2400 have been my go-to for many years for upper level .38 loads.
The OP says he's loading for a very modern M686 .357.
That platform provides a LOT of 'wiggle room' in what and how you load .38 ammo.

I enjoy loading for a c.1950's .38-44 HD with ammo duplicating the original .38 'Hi-Speed' ammo with hardcast 158/160 gr. LSWC's.
Doubt you'll find much modern loading manual data for that - and I restrict it to that gun and various .357's only. Never the first issue or problem.
Were I to own a M686, I'd not worry about going well into upper-level .38 Spl. loads.

 

[Nevada Ed]

When reloading the different types of Hornady bullets, one must know....

that the XTP & the FTX act differently at the fps that they are fired at.

Make sure that you know and learn, how these two types of bullets,
perform in your guns, if used for SD work.

The XTP needs a minimum of 960fps to get 98% results, to expand.

In a 38 snub nose the Remington GS at only 877fps is 100% with a .67 dia expansion.

Know what your ammo will do, in your revolvers.

 

[rhodesengr]

When reloading the different types of Hornady bullets, one must know....

that the XTP & the FTX act differently at the fps that they are fired at.

Make sure that you know and learn, how these two types of bullets,
perform in your guns, if used for SD work.

The XTP needs a minimum of 960fps to get 98% results, to expand.

In a 38 snub nose the Remington GS at only 877fps is 100% with a .67 dia expansion.

Know what your ammo will do, in your revolvers.

So this is great. Exactly the kind of info I needed: the speed required to get full expansion. However, my question now is where did your numbers come from? I didn't see that number (960) on the box of bullets, nor on the website. Did it come from independent testing or is it published somewhere. I would much rather be able to look up this info than have to ask in the forums for each bullet type. Same question for the GS bullets. Where can I find the data?

Did a search for GS bullets. I don't think Remington is making them anymore.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Try searching this forum for a while... It may answer some of your questions.

Question #1: "Full expansion", but, in what media, with which firearm, with what barrel length...?

Questions #2, 3 & 4: Where and how do you expect to have this information presented to you? Via the box or the website? Published by whom for what purpose?

 

[rhodesengr]

Where and how do you expect to have this information presented to you? Via the box or the website? Published by whom for what purpose?

Not sure why this is so difficult. What do I expect? I expect the manufacturer to provide performance data about their bullets.

In my professional life, I am an electrical engineer. I design and build complex electronic equipment. I have to choose components and I rely on all kinds of detailed data from the component manufacturers. For the most part, the manufactures provide a "technical datasheet" that usually has what I need.

To me, a bullet is just another component and is used to build cartridges. Hollow point bullets are pretty obviously designed to operate in a certain manner in a certain media. My understanding is that ballistic gel is the standard media for evaluating performance. I do not see any technical datasheet on the Hornady website. The fact that guys like Chris at Luckygunner feel like they need to exhaustive testing on their own kind of speaks to fact that the manufacturers do not publish much data. There is no doubt that such data exists. Whoever designed the XTP bullet at Hornady had some set of requirements to drive the design and certainly performed tests to show the design met the requirements.

If Hornady and other companies are going to sell bullets, I don't think it is asking too much for them to provide detailed technical performance data in whatever form they chose to validate their design.

 

[Nevada Ed]

So this is great. Exactly the kind of info I needed: the speed required to get full expansion. However, my question now is where did your numbers come from? I didn't see that number (960) on the box of bullets, nor on the website. Did it come from independent testing or is it published somewhere. I would much rather be able to look up this info than have to ask in the forums for each bullet type. Same question for the GS bullets. Where can I find the data?

Did a search for GS bullets. I don't think Remington is making them anymore.

The Rem GS was from a factory ammo box that I had to buy.......
The XTP was a reload that was tested with six powders & my chrony.
I also had a 125 Gold Dot fail to even start to open up in my snub nose J frame revolver,
one reason you should test all ammo in "Your gun" to see what happens.

The 38 110 gr is the lightest JHP that I would ever use with the
125 gr GS in 3rd place and the 135 G Dot in 2nd place.
For my M49, the best bullet/load for accuracy & POA, plus low recoil
and maximum expansion and 12" penetration in a lot of test in Gel, (net)
and my 32 target & chrony test loads made me a beleiver in the......

Federal HST, 130 gr Micro load for 38 snub nose revolvers.

These test are due to the recoil that I can work with and place shots on target
and reach a fps that will let the bullet work correctly at ten feet.

As a note;
I did my last bullet penetration/expansion test on 8/12/2012.

With todays quality bullets, you just need enough fps.......
Tight groups.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Well, for the reloading component bullets they tell you the weight, the diameter the ballistic coefficient and the various Features... No exposed lead, controlled expansion, cannelure on some, etc.

They have a chart that list expected velocity ranges for expansion.

After that, from a reloading standpoint at least(?), you are on your own.

YOUR results may, indeed, vary. Considerably, and not necessarily better than the factory loaded product in all cases. Upon occasion one finds improvement. That's kind of what reloading is all about...

Any expectations regarding "detailed performance technical data" may exceed that which they feel necessary to release. Take a look at the information they provide for their factory loaded product (ammunition), and in this case (Hornady) their loading manual if you feel you need and deserve more. Note they don't mention which powder (or powders?) they use, among other things.

What obligation do you feel they have to release their proprietary design and manufacturing data in order to "validate their design"? Validate to whom?

Cheers!

P.S. Before the internet, how many people ever even heard of ballistic gel?

 

[rhodesengr]

They have a chart that list expected velocity ranges for expansion.

Do you have the link for that?
I did some more searching and found this
https://press.hornady.com/assets/pcthumbs/tmp/1410998060-2022-Standard-Ballistics-Chart.pdf

It doesn't mention expansion at all. On the last page, it has information I already knew: that the 38spl American Gunner cartridge with the 125gr XTP bullet has a muzzle velocity of 900fps with a 4" barrel. That is consistent with the video I already mentioned that is on the Hornady website showing that bullet entering ballistic gel at 900fps.

The problem is that I have any number of posts here and elsewhere telling me I need more velocity. Nevada Ed posted that one needs 960fps to get 98% expansion. I asked where that number came from which is a fair question. Also, like it or not there are the tests posted on Luckygunner showing poor expansion performance at 892fps (measured entrance speed).

All of which brings me back to my original question. How much speed to I need and what is the source of the data.

I see now that Hornady has a reloading app and a book. I'd buy those things if I knew for sure they contained expansion vs velocity data (in ballistic gel).

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Nope. The chart basically shows a bar graph with velocity ranges for different XTP bullets. Just google XTP chart or the like...

You may be making this more difficult and technical than needs be...

You have an L-frame that will shoot 38 Specials through 357 Magnums. You have 125gr XTP bullets and Accurate #5 powder. Western powders has extensive load data for 38 Special, +P & 357 Magnum loads for this bullet.

If 900 fps from the factory in 38 Special causes you some concern from an expansion & self defense standpoint, just load 'em up a bit faster.

Can be done in 38 Special brass, in 357 Magnum brass, with regular or magnum sp primers, or with small rifle primers in a pinch.

Ed's numbers come from his years of past experience. Take them for what you will. He's indicating that in his experience & opinion one needs around 1K to get 98% reliable expansion with that bullet. One might get there in a carbine length barrel easier than in a 2 1/2 " Model 19. He's not telling you what powder and how much. How YOU get there depends on you: your gun, your powder, your reloading expertise.

Cheers!

P.S. At some higher velocity levels other problems may arise, like bullet fragmentation, etc. Very much like prunes: are two too few, are three too many?

Not everything is as cut and dried as you seem to expect: barrels vary, powders vary, chronographs vary, scales vary. Testing media varies a lot! Maybe you should consider doing all the testing and research needed to generate this "expansion vs. velocity data (in ballistic gel)" you desire and for possible publication? Who do you plan to approach to validate your data and conclusions?

 

[smithra_66]

If only it was that easy. There is no 357 Mag ammo that I have seen in my area. Big 5, Sportsmen Warehouse, and a Bass Pro... none of them have any. I see some online for about $1.40 and up a round plus shipping and FFL fees.... I can make it for much less.

I have everything I need except the load data says to use SPM primers and those I don't have. Some threads say regular SP primer will work.

Regular SP primers will work fine in applications calling for magnum primers.

 

[rhodesengr]

Who do you plan to approach to validate your data and conclusions?

Only the bad guys that attempt home invasion

Simply looking to build effective HD rounds.

I shot some 38spl rounds yesterday loaded with 7.1gr of AA#5. They certainly went bang. That is supposed to be a medium +p load. Have to wait until my Prochrono arrives to get any actual data.

I am trading my mistakenly bought 357Max brass for 357mag brass. I will try that too when I get it.